Cinram plants & a breakdown of a Cinram matrix. Plus CMCA & Cinram Huntsville ID

In digging into Cinram, Richmond, IN, as there is overlap as you will see shortly.)

The following matrix formatting applies directly to the Richmond (CMR), Huntsville (CMH) and Anaheim (CMCA) plants, loosely to Cinram, Commerce, CA plants. An unknown is if Cinram, after acquiring it from JVC, applied the matrix pattern to discs manufactured at the Tuscaloosa, AL plant (owned from 2014 to 2015).

Starting in 1994, each U.S. plant has mostly unique letters preceding the YMMDD glass master sequence. I have split CMH, as it had a specific set of letters applied only to CDs, and a different set of letters applied to DVDs.

CMCA U, O, R, S, T

Huntsville plant:
CD H, I, J, K, L, M
DVD/BR(?) N, P, R, T, E

Richmond plant:
as CMU A(?), B
as CMR A, B, C, D, E, F

Each letter corresponds with a particular Mastering SID (There are a few discrepancies in matrices on Discogs deviated from the below that I presume are typos):
Cinram (Canada)
No letter associated with any Mastering SIDs, instead a '#' preceded the glass master date.

CMCA
U, O, R, S, T = L806 to L810

CMH CDs
H, I, J, K, L, M = L801 to L806

CMH DVDs
N = L801, P = L802, R = L803, T = L804, E = L805

CMR
L383 = A (Oct '94 to May '97) & E (June '00 to close)
L384 = B (Oct '94 to Sept '97) & F (April '02 to close)
L385 = C
L388 = D

CMUSA
In the very limited number of Cinram USA pressings I have found in the CMR profile, they all use "B#".
I expect there to be "A#" as well. I also expect all CMUSA pressings to be pre-SID codes, but I am keeping an eye out for any surprises.

Note 1: In 1996 Cinram Richmond added the encoding letter to the matrix. 1995 and earlier pressings do not have the encoding letter. In/by January 2005, the Mastering SID was being printed in microtype, and the encoding letter was normally moved in front of the client number.
Note 2: CMH 2 duplicates the E (from Richmond); the E is on a Blu-Ray glass master. CMH 2 duplicates the R & T from CMCA. The lone T on Discogs has a 2008 glass master date, and the first R found has a 2003 glass master date; these dates are both after CMCA was shut down (in 2001).
Note 3: CMH 2 duplicates the P (from Canada); the Huntsville P is on L802 DVD glass masters. Updated the Canadian Mastering SID info. More research is warranted per https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/850834#8703667.

Now for a breakdown of the matrices. Each Cinram matrix has 7 parts. Here is an example of a typical Cinram matrix:
MFG BY DISCMAKERS L801 3900 DC191325 H80226-03 A [Cinram @ logo]

Part 1 ("MFG BY DISCMAKERS") appears only when there is a manufacturing broker.
Part 2 ("L801") is the Mastering SID.
Part 3 ("3900") is the Client ID #. It is a 4-digit number. If there is a broker, then the number is the broker's ID #; if there is no broker, then it is the label's ID #. Also see note 5.
Part 4 ("DC191325") is the Release's catalog number. Spaces and punctuation are removed. If there are numbers and less than 3 numbers in the release catalog number, then '0's are normally added to make the catalog number a minimum '000'. When there is a Broker involved, however, sometimes instead there is a catalog number associated with the broker (Example: "CD SONIC" has an associated 'CDS0000' catalog number scheme); this usually applies when the release itself does not have a catalog number.
Part 5 ("H80226-03") is the Glass Master number: "SYMMDD-00"; where 'S' is the letter associated with the Mastering SID.
Part 6 ("A") is the encoding type of the disc. More on this below.
Part 7 ("@") is the Plant ID.
- Cinram Canada used "MFG BY CINRAM"
- CMCA used a pressing plant ID of "CMCA" and also had the elements of "CMCA" and "@" appear in the matrix,
- Cinram Huntsville has "@" appear in the matrix.
- Cinram USA has "MFG BY CINRAM USA" or just "CINRAM USA" in the matrix.
- Cinram Richmond does not have a Plant ID in its matrix (as far as I can tell).

Note 4: Occasionally the release catalog number is printed twice in the matrix.
Note 5: There are some Client ID #'s that have more than one label associated with it; there is either: A) a parent company associated with all of these labels that does the manufacturing ordering; or B) a Manufacturing Broker for all of these labels that is not mentioned in the matrix.

Ok, encoding!
A = Audio
D = DVD (Single layer?)
G = Blu-Ray
H = Hidden (pre-gap) track?
M = Multimedia (aka Enhanced Audio disc)
O = CD-ROM
Y = DVD (Dual layer?)
Z = DVD (Dual layer?)

Encoding seems to have been added in 1997.

There is only one "G" and one "H" that I have come across in the 200 or so Cinram releases I have reviewed thus far.
"G" was on a Blu-Ray disc, so that was easy to determine.
The lone "H" so far has a pre-gap hidden track; I need to find more of these to firmly conclude it is so. I can confirm it is NOT for HDCD discs, as I have an HDCD pressing from Huntsville, and it has the "A" encoding. Edit 3: It is also possible the "H" is just a typo, and the disc should be an "A"; if I find no other releases with an "H" encoding I will request an owner of the release to please scan the matrix so that it can be viewed. (end edit 3)
I have come across only 2 "O" encoded releases; one is a business card that plays a video, and the other is a bonus CD-ROM disc. I need to find more examples to comfortably come to a conclusion, but I believe I am on the right track for categorizing these "O" encoded releases. Edit 6: I have found 3 additional "O" encoded releases, all CD-ROMs. (end edit 6)

Barring finding any other encoding letters (and confirming the "H"), I would like to add this detail to the Cinram Richmond profile, and include it in the CMCA and Cinram Huntsville profiles when they are updated.

Edit 1: Added notes 1 to 3.
Edit 2: Updated Part 3 and added Note 5.
Edit 3: Added possible typo note regarding "H" encoding.
Edit 4: Updated Cinram Richmond's Mastering SIDs and corresponding glass master letter.
Edit 5: Updated Cinram Richmond's Mastering SIDs and corresponding glass master letter for the letter "A".
Edit 6: Updated "O" encoded releases note. Updated thread title. Changed Note 1.
Edit 7: Added CMUSA. Added comment about encoding seeming to start in 1997.
Edit 8: Added to CMH 2: "N = L801"
Edit 9: Note 3. Added paragraph regarding how this matrix pattern applies to all of the N. American Cinram plants. Added the hyperlinks for the label pages of the plants.
Edit 10: Added to CMH 2: "R = L803, T = L804". Updated Note 2.
Edit 11: Expanded the details regarding the pressing plant identifiers (Part 7) and the Mastering SID letters, expanded the info on CMU and CMH, and some other minor tidying up.

Inviting fishbulb

If you would like to invite anyone else, please do.

Also, what's the best way to link the PDFs I have made in this thread? Google Doc or something else?

Cousin_Mosquito

Cinram, Richmond, IN share string similarities in font style and pattern.

oceanographer
CMCA and Cinram, Richmond, IN share string similarities in font style and pattern.

Yes they do. These plants also use the same SID codes from Disc Manufacturing, Inc., the company Cinram acquired in 1997.

SID Mould code commonly found on inner hub of discs from this plant is IFPI 2Fxx. SID Mastering code commonly found in matrix band is IFPI L80x and L81x.

As a further *coincidence*, the glass master dates for CMCA eerily coincide with the time from when Cinram bought DMI to when it closed the Anaheim plant.

CMCA U and CMH 1 M is using the same glass mastering machine, did they move it at one point? And if so, from where to where?

Warepire
CMCA U and CMH 1 M is using the same glass mastering machine, did they move it at one point? And if so, from where to where?

CMCA's oldest L806 GM is U90426-03
CMCA's newest L806 GM is U10118-04
CMH's oldest L806 GM is M90815-03
CMH's newest L806 GM is M10614-02

It would seem L806 M GM's were being made for CMH at CMCA for a year before the machine was moved to Huntsville. But that's just a guess.
Edit: It's just as likely the machine was always in Huntsville, and the L806 U GM's were sent to Anaheim. WEA did a similar practice with making GM's in Olyphant and sending them to the Commerce plant for pressing. (end of edit)

I have 92 samples for CMH, and 47 for CMCA, so it's not a huge number. But it was more than enough to break down the matrix. I am drafting a thread on the breakdown of GM and pressing credits for the 2 Cinram plants, to include brokers I have identified thus far.

Edit: found a CMCA pressing in my collection, it pushes the youngest CMCA U pressing date into January 2001.

Opening timeline for Anaheim plant
https://www.plasticsnews.com/article/20000207/NEWS/302079978/cinram-expanding-to-meet-dvd-demand

Closure timeline for Anaheim plant
https://www.ocbj.com/news/2001/may/28/cinram-international-has-closed-its-anaheim-plant/

From first article
Cinram makes CDs in Mexico City in addition to the sites in Alabama, California, Indiana, Ontario and the Netherlands.

This document has the address for Cinram's plant in Anaheim.
https://contracts.onecle.com/mp3/cinram.mfg.1999.11.04.shtml

Great information and thread, thanks for starting this!

Can I ask how you established which mastering SID codes and how the lone @ belonged specifically to Huntsville?

Myriad
Can I ask how you established which mastering SID codes and how the lone @ belonged specifically to Huntsville?

I created a spreadsheet and started plugging in matrix data from releases with the Mastering SIDs known to belong to DMI. After entering in 140 matrices, I looked for patterns.

CMCA https://drive.google.com/file/d/1usMUKOk48QIJbOQxgtK-JkxTf3BZidfQ/view
CMH CDs https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CIwgzbeJwMMJGrzYtwgQUcu4mtUFX0Sa/view
CMH DVDs https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fOA5DOyWYhP_dydF3IE93_szp36w9HyM/view

If there's a better way to share the documents, please let me know.

Another thing to mention is that the CMCA Mould SIDs start at 79 (2F79) and go up to the 90's. The Huntsville Mould SIDs start in the 00's and go up to the mid 70's, with a few exceptions.

Edit: These exceptions could be typos. s frequently mistake 1's & I's, and 0's & O's... It's not a stretch that some s might have misread 3's and/or 6's as 8's.

star_man_20
Another thing to mention is that the CMCA Mould SIDs start at 79 (2F79) and go up to the 90's. The Huntsville Mould SIDs start in the 00's and go up to the mid 70's, with a few exceptions.

Just requested access, it's from a university email address :P

Myriad
Just requested access, it's from a university email address :P

Terribly sorry, unrestricted access to all three files. Should be able to view them all with the link now.

Liam Gallagher: As It Was has a release date of "15 Oct 2019", so it cannot have been pressed by Cinram, but by Technicolor.

All of these different major manufacturing companies have reformatted their matrix schemes at some plants; yet adopted the previous owner's matrix schemes and glass master numbering at other plants, and just removing the previous manufacturer's ID.

Maybe an owner of this pressing will a scan of the pressing's matrix to see if it is truly missing the "@"?

star_man_20
Terribly sorry, unrestricted access to all three files. Should be able to view them all with the link now.

Awesome, thanks!

star_man_20
I created a spreadsheet and started plugging in matrix data from releases with the Mastering SIDs known to belong to DMI. After entering in 140 matrices, I looked for patterns.

CMCA https://drive.google.com/file/d/1usMUKOk48QIJbOQxgtK-JkxTf3BZidfQ/view
CMH CDs https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CIwgzbeJwMMJGrzYtwgQUcu4mtUFX0Sa/view
CMH DVDs https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fOA5DOyWYhP_dydF3IE93_szp36w9HyM/view

So these spreadsheets are for the Cinram pressings assigned to each location based on the mastering SID code? Are you able to also share the DMI spreadsheet that you started with?

Myriad
So these spreadsheets are for the Cinram pressings assigned to each location based on the mastering SID code? Are you able to also share the DMI spreadsheet that you started with?

I don't have a spreadsheet on DMI.

There are, however, some releases that have the DMI-style W.O./S.O. matrices but no DMI credit.... I need to compile some more CMH matrices to get a better idea on when the matrix format was switched, and see if there was a noticeable gap between when Cinram took over Huntsville and when the matrix appears.

I will start compiling these unclaimed matrices once I can start crediting the "@" pressings to Cinram, Huntsville.

star_man_20
I don't have a spreadsheet on DMI.

Right. So then are all the releases listed on the CMH CDs spreadsheet grouped together simply because none of them name CMCA in the matrix?

Myriad
star_man_20I don't have a spreadsheet on DMI.
Right. So then are all the releases listed on the CMH CDs spreadsheet grouped together simply because none of them name CMCA in the matrix?

Correct, but.....
CMCA: Same matrix pattern as CMH, "CMCA @" on pressings; letters U, O, R, S, T; L806 to L810; 2F79 to 2F99
"CMH": Same matrix pattern as CMCA, "@" on pressings; letters H, I, J, K, L, M; L801 to L806; 2F00 to 2F71

star_man_20
Part 5 ("H80226-03") is the Glass Master number: "SYMMDD-00"; where 'S' is the letter associated with the Mastering SID.

I've noticed there are similarities to Part 5 of the matrix breakdown and Cinram, Richmond, IN patterns where 'the date of the glass master can be determined from the Cinram matrix number.'

Examples:

Grateful Dead* - Dick's Picks Volume Ten 12/29/77 released in 1998 2-disc set
Disc 1 L808 5813 GDCD40301 R80207-07 A [CMCA logo]
Disc 2 L809 5813 GDCD40302 S80207-10 A [CMCA logo]
R80207 indicates a glass master date of February 7, 1998

Magellan - Hour Of Restoration released in 1999
L806 4174 MA00012 U91025-06 A
U91025 = glass master date of October, 25, 1999

Gilles Brown - C'est Pour Vous Que Je Chante released in 2000
221113 CMCA L808 7708 221113 R00524-22 A MFG BY RSB
R00524 = glass master date of May 24, 2000

This pattern is not found in all of the matrix strings but a possible glass mastering dates seems to exist.

oceanographer
I've noticed there are similarities to Part 5 of the matrix breakdown and Cinram, Richmond, IN patterns where 'the date of the glass master can be determined from the Cinram matrix number.'

Examples:

Grateful Dead* - Dick's Picks Volume Ten 12/29/77 released in 1998 2-disc set
Disc 1 L808 5813 GDCD40301 R80207-07 A [CMCA logo]
Disc 2 L809 5813 GDCD40302 S80207-10 A [CMCA logo]

Yes. and if you look further, the -00 appears to be of significance, too.
Disc 1 was likely the 7th glass master of the day, and Disc 2 the 10th.

star_man_20
Correct, but.....
CMCA: Same matrix pattern as CMH, "CMCA @" on pressings; letters U, O, R, S, T; L806 to L810; 2F79 to 2F99
"CMH": Same matrix pattern as CMCA, "@" on pressings; letters H, I, J, K, L, M; L801 to L806; 2F00 to 2F71

So do all pressings with any of "letters U, O, R, S, T; L806 to L810; 2F79 to 2F99" always show CMCA in the matrix?

All of the entries that I have seen so far, yes.

Myriad
So do all pressings with any of "letters U, O, R, S, T; L806 to L810; 2F79 to 2F99" always show CMCA in the matrix?

https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/Blessid-Union-Of-Souls-The-Singles/release/17345791#images/54351496

star_man_20
pressings; letters U, O, R, S, T; L806 to L810;

possible those lead letters relate to the LBR used for the glass mastering?
the same correlation exists with Olyphant glass masters whereas W = L901, X = L902, Y = L903 and Z = L909

oceanographer
possible those lead letters relate to the LBR used for the glass mastering?
the same correlation exists with Olyphant glass masters whereas W = L901, X = L902, Y = L903 and Z = L909

My apologies for being unclear in my previous posts. Yes, I was sharing exactly that.
L806 = U*
L807 = O
L808 = R
L809 = S
L810 = T

My belief is any discrepancies from the above are due to typos.

I do want to note that there are some L806 (= M) pressings from the Huntsville plant.
Huntsville has: H, I, J, K, L, M
L801 = H (CDs), N (DVDs)
L802 = I (CDs), P (DVD & Blu-Ray)
L803 = J
L804 = K
L805 = L (CDs), E (DVDs)
L806 = M

Cinram Huntsville may have changed the letter depending on the media type (CD, DVD), but CMCA did not (as far as I can tell).

Edit 1: "L801 = H (CDs), N (DVDs)"
Edit 2: "P (DVD & Blu-Ray)"

no letter duplication so far. suppose they have the whole alphabet of LBRs between their plants?

at a quick glance Richmond uses A-F, Huntsville H-M, Anaheim O, P, R-U and Olyphant W-Z.

I haven't come across a "G", "Q", or "V" to "Z" LBR letter yet, but they could yet exist; just probably not on formats recorded on Discogs.
The formats I refer to are PC games, PlayStation discs, etc.
Or they are on formats Discogs catalogs, such as HD DVD, CDV, etc., and I just didn't come across them with my small sample size.

Edit 1: Removed "A" per later discussion.
Edit 2: Removed "N" after coming across a DVD with this LBR letter.

oceanographer
no letter duplication so far. suppose they have the whole alphabet of LBRs between their plants?

Canada used "P" in the 90s, and was later used on the lone Blu-Ray that I have attributed to Huntsville. Other than that, no LBR letter overlap.

a few 'A's
No Artist - Jungle

oceanographer
a few 'A's

Thanks!

ok, it is a bit of a small sample size, but based on the above it appears that "A" is for 90's L383 glass masters, and the letter was changed to E for the 00's.

oceanographer, the research is going fantastically and really interesting, great work!

My only reservation at the moment is that your "CMH" is basically just based on the assumption that [former DMI SID codes that don't show CMCA in the matrix must = CMH], rather than being proven to originate from CMH itself for sure. Which is really the most logical way of approaching it and given our limited resources the only thing you can do at this point. That said we do know that SID codes can move around between locations/plants/manufacturers over time, and matrix patterns can be updated at any point.

So anyway I've done up a little spreadsheet to see if the mould SID codes present on DMI Inc (A) vs DMI Inc (H) correlate to this assertion:

star_man_20
Correct, but.....
CMCA: Same matrix pattern as CMH, "CMCA @" on pressings; letters U, O, R, S, T; L806 to L810; 2F79 to 2F99
"CMH": Same matrix pattern as CMCA, "@" on pressings; letters H, I, J, K, L, M; L801 to L806; 2F00 to 2F71

which I think would be useful evidence that the SID codes did indeed remain in the same location after the transition to Cinram. Unfortunately after 1995 most DMI releases stopped using the (A) or (H) ID in the matrix, and so we can't tell which location they come from. Also, mastering SID codes are seemingly ONLY present on these non-located releases, so I haven't been able to do any work on them.

Let's see if this works: https://ufile.io/k9am2vfz

So what I've seen is:
2F00-2F70 = Huntsville
2F71-2F99 = Anaheim
EXCEPT for 2 releases with (A1) matrix and 2F62 mould SID - could be an example of a glass master from one location vs pressed in the other but these are otherwise outliers.

which does agree with your own findings starman about "CMH".

It would be interesting to make a similar spreadsheet for Disc Manufacturing, Inc. to see whether the mastering SID codes always match the mould SID codes of the respective presumed plants: [Huntsville = L801 to L806; 2F00 to 2F71] and [Anaheim = L806 to L810; 2F79 to 2F99]

Myriad
Let's see if this works: https://ufile.io/k9am2vfz

Can you this to a website that doesn't trigger all sorts of warnings?

star_man_20
Can you this to a website that doesn't trigger all sorts of warnings?

Try this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSjKjMJi0SZsqqdpm6VG0y9RS-OBEFNBCDGytlsNbazKantk0Mn8anuzSa1zQmlmA/pubhtml

Myriad
Try this:

Enable permissions please. Thanks!

I have found 2 discs with the following BAOI:
Matrix: Disc Mfg, Inc. [H5] W.O. 502524-5 502524
Mould SID: IFPI 2F55

Matrix: Disc Mfg, Inc. [H7] W.O. 507982-1 507982
Mould SID: IFPI 2F55

Made edits 6 and 7 to the first post.

star_man_20
MyriadCan I ask how you established which mastering SID codes and how the lone @ belonged specifically to Huntsville?

I created a spreadsheet and started plugging in matrix data from releases with the Mastering SIDs known to belong to DMI. After entering in 140 matrices, I looked for patterns.

CMCA https://drive.google.com/file/d/1usMUKOk48QIJbOQxgtK-JkxTf3BZidfQ/view
CMH CDs https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CIwgzbeJwMMJGrzYtwgQUcu4mtUFX0Sa/view
CMH DVDs https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fOA5DOyWYhP_dydF3IE93_szp36w9HyM/view

If there's a better way to share the documents, please let me know.

mr_mando here's the data compiled to break down the matrix. This pattern applied across 4 of the North American Cinram plants.

Most of your other questions are also answered in this thread.

kbell75, the impetus for asking for the scans of the DVD. Cheers!

Edited OP plus related comments regarding "L801 = H (CDs), N (DVDs)"

More on encoding:
Godflesh - Songs Of Love And Hate // Love And Hate In Dub // In All Languages
RN on release: "There is no enhanced content on CD1. The disc has been mastered wrong so the data track is ed as pre-gap audio in the TOC."
The matrix for CD1? "A 7301 7453161781271 E90225-03"

I wonder if there is a variant with an M at the beginning of the matrix (where the "A" is above).... and does it's enhanced content work correctly?

star_man_20
the impetus for asking for the scans of the DVD. Cheers!

Scans added to: Widespread Panic - Live At Oak Mountain
I also updated these subs of mine:
Various - Pickin' On Widespread Panic: A Bluegrass Tribute

kbell75
star_man_20the impetus for asking for the scans of the DVD. Cheers!
Scans added to: Widespread Panic - Live At Oak Mountain
I also updated these subs of mine:
Various - Long Strange Trip: Swingin' And Pickin' On The Grateful Dead
Various - Pickin' On Widespread Panic: A Bluegrass Tribute

Wow! Thanks! Does the Live At Oak Mountain have any Mould SIDs?

For the record, this release is the monkey wrench... Widespread Panic - Live At Oak Mountain
Cinram Richmond Mastering SIDs, uses both N and P. *sighs*

star_man_20
Does the Live At Oak Mountain have any Mould SIDs?

No, no mould SIDs. Only other thing I can see in the mirror band is 'PRINT SIDE' twice on each disc on the non-playing side (obviously); I imagine that is stock, not anything unique.

kbell75
No, no mould SIDs

Ok, this release is a Frankenstein. Or a platypus.

-Mastering SID used at Richmond. Yet Richmond outsourced to the Olyphant plant the manufacturing of 95+% of the DVDs paired with it's CDs.
-"@" was on Huntsville pressings. First Richmond pressing I've come across with that symbol in the matrix.
-Glass master letter also used at Huntsville. And during the time this pressing was made.

*sighs*

Call me thick, but I don't understand the "P" for Canadian Cinram. I just went through a whack on my CDs and none of them have P. They have # at the beginning of the date.
There are also various master SIDS and there is no -xx after the date.

However, there is / are letters which at a cursory glance seem to correspond to the master SID once the single letter plus two number Lnn ending is introduced.

So date code is #nnnnnL, #nnnnnLL, #nnnnnnLL or #nnnnnLnn, #nnnnnnLnn (n = number, L = capital letter)

L381 = A or B or C or E or F or K or L or O
L382 = A or AA or BB or CC or DD or EE or GG or HH or II (capital I) or JJ or KK or LL or QQ or XE
L383 = XN
L385 = BB or MM
L386 = XD or XG or XH or XK or X0

With Lnn extension
L381 = V beginning May 2000 ending Oct 16 2000
L382 = W beginning May 2000
L385 = W on a couple random 2001 and 2004 CDs ?data entry errors?
L386 = X beginning May 2000
L387 = Y beginning May 2000
LT36 = Z beggining June 2002
LT40 = V beginning Aug 21 2003

Edited to add more info from browsing the database.

Madturtle3
Call me thick, but I don't understand the "P" for Canadian Cinram. I just went through a whack on my CDs and none of them have P. They have # at the beginning of the date.
There are also various master SIDS and there is no -xx after the date.

However, there is / are letters which at a cursory glance seem to correspond to the master SID once the single letter plus two number Lnn ending is introduced.

So date code is #nnnnnL, #nnnnnLL, #nnnnnnLL or #nnnnnLnn, #nnnnnnLnn (n = number, L = capital letter)

L381 = A or B or C or E or F or K or L or O
L382 = A or AA or BB or CC or DD or EE or GG or HH or II (capital I) or JJ or KK or LL or QQ or XE
L383 = XN
L385 = BB or MM
L386 = XD or XG or XH or XK or X0

With Lnn extension
L381 = V beginning May 2000 ending Oct 16 2000
L382 = W beginning May 2000
L385 = W on a couple random 2001 and 2004 CDs ?data entry errors?
L386 = X beginning May 2000
L387 = Y beginning May 2000
LT36 = Z beggining June 2002
LT40 = V beginning Aug 21 2003

Edited to add more info from browsing the database.

This is great!

I looked at my Cinram releases (a paltry 7 so far), and none of mine have the "P".

I had taken the information from the Cinram page, so I re-read it. Here's the applicable section:

Some time during 1989-1990, a P was temporarily used to replace the leading digit

The Olyphant plant continued to use WEA's formatting style the +/- 12 years in Cinram's ownership. I have not seen any Cinram Commerce releases that were glass mastered at Commerce, just pressed (you know, with that "CI/CA" stamp in the mould).

So, I will clarify in the initial post that the matrix formatting appears to apply mainly to the Richmond, Huntsville and Anaheim plants, loosely to the Canadian and Cinram, Mexico (needs further research!) plants, and not at all to the Olyphant or Commerce plants. An unknown is if Cinram, after acquiring it from JVC, applied the matrix pattern to discs manufactured at the Tuscaloosa, AL plant (2014-2015).

Madturtle3
L385 = W on a couple random 2001 and 2004 CDs ?data entry errors?

Probably entry errors? L385 was in use at Richmond by 1997, so it's possible there are multiple typos in the matrix info. But then again, L806 appears to have been used by both Anaheim and Huntsville (no idea which plant L806 was actually at), Canada did some glass mastering for Mexico, and there's a DVD with both Huntsville and Richmond attributes.

Edit: created a list of Cinram headscratchers: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/lists/Cinram-Platipi/756364
If you want to add the aforementioned randoms to this list, I'd love to look them over.

star_man_20
I had taken the information from the Cinram page, so I re-read it. Here's the applicable section:
Some time during 1989-1990, a P was temporarily used to replace the leading digit

I was going to say that one possible way to check this with known dates would be this promo CD series, but the handful from that time period that I spot-checked have empty BaOI sections :(

https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/519986-Warner-Music-Canada-Promotional-CD

I feel a bit silly for not thinking of this earlier.... Client numbers!

V2 records has number 3881
CMCA: Blessid Union Of Souls - The Singles
Huntsville: Stereophonics - Word Gets Around
Richmond: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=V2&format=CD&matrix=3881

RCA records has number 1099
CMCA: none
Huntsville: *NSYNC - *NSYNC
Richmond: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=RCA&format=CD&country=US&matrix=1099

Metropolis has number 8458
CMCA: none* (A lot of Huntsville pressings and a few CMR pressings are mistakenly being credited to CMCA though.)
Huntsville: Die Form - Archives & Documents III
Richmond: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Metropolis&format=CD&matrix=8458

DreamWorks has number 4776
CMCA: Various - SNL25 - Saturday Night Live, The Musical Performances Volume 2
Huntsville: Solé - Skin Deep
Richmond: none

Volcano (2) has number 7464
CMCA: Tool (2) - Salival
Huntsville: 311 - Enlarged To Show Detail 2 - Bonus EP
Richmond: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Volcano&format=CD&matrix=7464

Yet another thread that weaves these three plants together!

It appears that Huntsville used R (L803) on a 2003 DVD: P!NK - Try This
T (L804) was on a 2008 DVD: No Artist - King Of New York
These letters were previously used on CMCA CDs, but CMCA was shut down in 2001.

star_man_20 as you r actually aware of cinram SID codes.
Your recent edit today related to pressing code A8100 > A6100 from a cinram press.
Is certified ifpi 8xxx is never used by cinram ? i didnt or/and i am not sure about the validity abouth this one

https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&barcode=il38+i8 possible error ? (90 r.)

thx2confirm

Klass.Animal
star_man_20 as you r actually aware of cinram SID codes.
Your recent edit today related to pressing code A8100 > A6100 from a cinram press.
Is certified ifpi 8xxx is never used by cinram ? i didnt or/and i am not sure about the validity abouth this one

https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&barcode=il38+i8 possible error ? (90 r.)

thx2confirm

Hi, I have caught some typos already here: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/874837

Richmond used 6100, but also EMI's 16XX. When I see "8100", I change it to "6100", as that is just a typo. I also fix matrices when a scan of said matrix is provided and I looked for an image since I spotted an irregularity. Did I miss correcting an "8100"?

star_man_20
Edited OP plus related comments regarding "L801 = H (CDs), N (DVDs)"

I've just added this 2003 DVD to the database; on the release it says 'Manufactured in Mexico and Distributed for Universal Music Mexico' (Hecho en Mexico y Distribuido por Universal Music Mexico). So I have assumed that it could only have been made at Cinram, Mexico. Do you agree?
Metallica - The Rockumentary

kbell75
star_man_20Edited OP plus related comments regarding "L801 = H (CDs), N (DVDs)"
I've just added this 2003 DVD to the database; on the release it says 'Manufactured in Mexico and Distributed for Universal Music Mexico' (Hecho en Mexico y Distribuido por Universal Music Mexico). So I have assumed that it could only have been made at Cinram, Mexico. Do you agree?
Metallica - The Rockumentary

Yes, except that I would credit the glass mastering to Cinram Huntsville instead.

The IFPI 2Q** indicates the disc was pressed at Cinram Mexico.

I have come across a few releases so far that have been mastered at one Cinram location, and pressed at another. Although it would appear that the Canadian plant normally provided glass masters to Mexico, I would be more surprised if the other Cinram plants DIDN'T provide glass masters to Mexico occasionally, too.

star_man_20
Yes, except that I would credit the glass mastering to Cinram Huntsville instead.

Thank you! I have applied this update and referred back to this thread.

star_man_20

(apologies if this is the wrong thread for this)

Added matrix variant here: Grim Reaper (3) - See You In Hell

Should that be a new release per Cinram Richmond LCCN or should the way we enter the catalog number for Cinram change?

Warepire
Should that be a new release per Cinram Richmond LCCN

If version 1 was glass mastered in 2000, and version 2 was 2005, then they are not the same version.

fishbulb
WarepireShould that be a new release per Cinram Richmond LCCN
If version 1 was glass mastered in 2000, and version 2 was 2005, then they are not the same version.

https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/874837?page=3#8951755

Howdy!

Just found this thread after submitting 2nd Chapter Of Acts - Encores which has similar matrix string -
L805 4864 688419929 L00923-15 A @
Note there is no visiible Mould SID, though I suspect the 'L805' can be identified as Mastering SID.

A couple of questions without having to go through all the posts above as I can see a Cinram plant is likley involved here:
1) is a specific pressing plant or glass master identifiable from this info?
2) is any of the above able to be added to the profiles of indicated Cinram plants yet, so that searching for common characteristics makes it easier to ID.
3) Is there a CD matrix ID thread similar to the vinyl runout groove thread? I deal mostly in vinyl, but have not found a consistent palce to bring CD ID questions.

Thanks!

GParty
1) is a specific pressing plant or glass master identifiable from this info?

Thank you for adding the scan of the matrix to the submission. I have bolded the significant parts of the matrix that identify Cinram Huntsville as the plant the disc was manufactured at.
L805 4864 688419929 L00923-15 A @
Individually they cannot be used for identification, but collectively they can. Also, the font used for the matrix is right.

GParty
2) is any of the above able to be added to the profiles of indicated Cinram plants yet, so that searching for common characteristics makes it easier to ID.

I am still working on another update for the Cinram Richmond profile. Once that is done, I will be updating the Huntsville and CMCA profiles. A lot of what I find on the Richmond Matrix will also apply to CMH & CMCA.

GParty
3) Is there a CD matrix ID thread similar to the vinyl runout groove thread? I deal mostly in vinyl, but have not found a consistent palce to bring CD ID questions.

You can try posting here: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/719616
This thread is a bit more focused, but for any release with a /CA, -CA, etc, mfg identifier, you can look here: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/824040

GParty
Note there is no visiible Mould SID, though I suspect the 'L805' can be identified as Mastering SID.

Correct.

star_man_20 Thanks! Very helpful.

address info for the Cinram, Huntsville location
https://cinram-huntsville-al.hub.biz/
https://www.mapquest.com/us/alabama/cinram-manufacturing-412843369

an Oxford University Press encyclopedia entry outlines the history of Cinram
https://www.encyclopedia.com/books/politics-and-business-magazines/cinram-international-inc

plants in Santa Monica, CA and Cinram España S.A. among others are mentioned in the entry.

Ok, to establish the transfer from Disc Mfg Inc (Huntsville) to Cinram Huntsville I introduce the following:

It is acknowledged that a matrix string including "DISC MFG, INC [H(#)]" is a Disc Manufacturing, Inc., Huntsville manufactured release.

So, to tie Mould SID codes to the Huntsville plant, let's first note that the first addition of SID codes were the Mould SIDs, as visible on these releases:
H2: Ton Koppenaal - Electronic Ambient Grooves (Volume One)
H5 (12 results): https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?q=Disc+Mfg%2C+Inc.+%5BH5%5D+ifpi+2F&type=release
H7 (12 results): https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?q=Disc+Mfg%2C+Inc.+%5BH7%5D+ifpi+2F&type=release

The Mould SIDs in the above search results were within the 2F00 to 2F71 range.

Note 1: Searches for H1, H3, H4, and H6 with 2F Mould SIDs did not have any results.

The [A(#)] and [H(#)] formatting was dropped when the Mastering SID was added to the matrix.

Note 2: Searches for A1-7 and H1-7 with L8 returned with zero matches, so there are currently no Matrices matching an A#/H# with an L8** Mastering SID.

There were no Huntsville masters with out-of-range Mould SIDs:
2F7* - 12 results (but were only for 2F70 & 2F71): https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Huntsville&barcode=2F7&format=CD
2F8* - 0 results: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Huntsville&barcode=2F8&format=CD
2F9* - 0 results: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Huntsville&barcode=2F9&format=CD

For reference, here are similar Mould SID results with Disc Mfg Inc. Anaheim masters:
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/release/14988572-John-Doan-Remembrance/image/SW1hZ2U6NDUyMzk4MjY=

The Mould SID results at Anaheim were normally within 2F7*-2F99

Anaheim masters with out-of-range Mould SIDs:
2F0* - 0 results: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Anaheim&barcode=2F0&format=CD
2F1* - 0 results: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Anaheim&barcode=2F1&format=CD
2F2* - 0 results: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Anaheim&barcode=2F2&format=CD
2F3* - 0 results: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Anaheim&barcode=2F3&format=CD
2F4* - 0 results: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Anaheim&barcode=2F4&format=CD
2F5* - 1 result: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Anaheim&barcode=2F5&format=CD
2F6* - 2 results: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?type=release&label=Disc+Manufacturing%2C+Inc.%2C+Anaheim&barcode=2F6&format=CD

The pitch and font used for the Mould SIDs makes them a bit difficult to read, so it is plausible that an 8 could be misread as a 5 or 6. However, it is also theoretically possible that the above anomalies could have been mastered at Anaheim and pressed at Huntsville.

As mentioned at the top of the thread, it is known that Cinram purchased the Anaheim and Huntsville pressing plants from DMI.

CMCA appeared in the matrix and/or as a Pressing Plant ID and was using known DMI mastering SIDs and the 2F7*-2F99 Mould SIDs.
Note 3: CMCA is almost 100% likely an abbreviation of 'CinraM CAlifornia'.

'Huntsville' did not appear in Cinram Huntsville matrices but used known DMI mastering SIDs and the 2F00-2F71 Mould SIDs.

CMCA and Cinram Huntsville used the Cinram Richmond matrix pattern and font, and shared client ID numbers (mentioned here), as well as the SYMMDD-C# glass master format.

Are there any objections to:
1) formally approving the LCCN profile of Cinram, Huntsville?
2) Adding CMCA as a sublabel of Cinram?

If there's no objection, I'll begin drafting profiles for the above plants.

oceanographer
plants in Santa Monica, CA

"Cinram got into the nascent DVD business when it formed a t DVD-authoring venture with Pacific Ocean Post, a digital post-production company based in Santa Monica, California."
I don't think the above means there was a plant in Santa Monica... just that the headquarters of their partner (Pacific Ocean Post) was in that city.

oceanographer
Cinram España S.A.

Cinram España S.A. (Zaragoza, Spain)... If there is a way to identify the manufacturer of videocassettes, then we will eventually need to create this plant.
"In 1997 [Cinram aqcuired] most of the videocassette duplication assets of Grupo Condor S.L. of Spain, which consisted of two manufacturing facilities that could produce 25 million tapes per year."

star_man_20
Are there any objections to:
1) formally approving the LCCN profile of Cinram, Huntsville?
2) Adding CMCA as a sublabel of Cinram?

Not from me. :)

star_man_20
If there's no objection, I'll begin drafting profiles for the above plants.

+1 - thanks for the in depth research

incidentally did Sonopress ever have a stake in these factories? all of the releases are pre-94 so no SID codes to compare.
Sonopress (H)

they share the same matrix style as DMI / Disctronics with a pattern of Company Name - Work Order # - Catalog number

oceanographer
incidentally did Sonopress ever have a stake in these factories? all of the releases are pre-94 so no SID codes to compare.
Sonopress <A> & Sonopress (A)
Sonopress (H)

they share the same matrix style as DMI / Disctronics with a pattern of Company Name - Work Order # - Catalog number

Those were Mexico releases, so it's more likely the A and H are coincidence.

Off the top of my head, I know that KAO also used the S.O./W.O. matrix scheme. I know there's at least 1 other I can't at the moment.

In the 80's and early '90s it seems there wasn't much in the way of originality when it came to matrix patterns.

oceanographer
incidentally did Sonopress ever have a stake in these factories? all of the releases are pre-94 so no SID codes to compare.
Sonopress <A> & Sonopress (A)
Sonopress (H)

they share the same matrix style as DMI / Disctronics with a pattern of Company Name - Work Order # - Catalog number

My belief is that these are glass masters manufactured by DMI/Disctronics for Sonopress Mexico, which were then replicated locally in Mexico by Sonopress. I would assume Sonopress requested their own name be in the matrix rather than DMI/Disctronics. The presence of (A) / (H) and the same matrix pattern is too similar to be a coincidence.

a lot of big work here. congrats guys!

Just gave the F56

star_man_20
LMK if you see anything that should be changed.

Tiny thing: "Glass Mastered By" should be "Glass Mastered At" on the 4th bullet point.

star_man_20
Just gave the Cinram, Huntsville page a profile. It mostly copies what is on the Richmond page. LMK if you see anything that should be changed.

F56

Thx!

Cousin_Mosquito
star_man_20LMK if you see anything that should be changed.

Tiny thing: "Glass Mastered By" should be "Glass Mastered At" on the 4th bullet point.

Fixed. Also tweaked the two sentences referring to the LBR letter assignments.

I can't understand why the number YXXXXX-XX should be submitted as cat.# in LCCN. These numbers have not a clear time sequence.
In any case, why the -XX appendix should be added as part of the cat.#? It seems to be irrelevant as part of it.

Martin35, please feel free to read the above thread discussing things noted as they were found/figured out, but

("H80226-03") is the Glass Master number: "SYMMDD-00"; where 'S' is the letter associated with the Mastering SID.

So, glass master date of 1999-March-04 based on "H90304" in matrix. H is the associated Mastering SID (L801), 9 =1999, etc etc.

I hope this answers your question.

Same.Old.Me
These numbers have not a clear time sequence.

How so?

Same.Old.Me
In any case, why the -XX appendix should be added as part of the cat.#? It seems to be irrelevant as part of it.

Actually the "-XX" is an integral part of the cat #.

Cinram implanted in the matrix the glass master date of "YMMDD". In front of the date is a letter that corresponds to a specific LBR. now we have "SYMMDD". Still not something specific to the particular pressing.

However, from what I have found is that the -XX is a sequential number that resets each day, and each LBR has it's own daily count.

So in its entirety, "SYMMDD-XX" is a sequential, specific number for a pressing.

star_man_20
How so?

Starting from https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/635272-Cinram-Richmond-IN?page=3 I find numbers in numbering sequence but in many cases the release dates are not in time sequence.
The cat.#s should have a numbering and a timing sequence.

star_man_20
So in its entirety, "SYMMDD-XX" is a sequential, specific number for a pressing.

I didn't find releases with the same number (SYMMDD) but different final appendix.
In many other label profiles the appendix is considered as an internal number of the pressing plant and they are not part of the presumed cat.#.

Hello https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/release/4775700-Yourself-Or-Someone-Like-You/history?utm_campaign=submission-activity&utm_source=relationship&utm_medium=pm#latest
Also pinging, release holder, 1acoombs

Same.Old.Me
I didn't find releases with the same number (SYMMDD) but different final appendix.
In many other label profiles the appendix is considered as an internal number of the pressing plant and they are not part of the presumed cat.#.

RSG §4.7.2 "For other companies on the release, leave the catalog number field blank, unless there is a sequential identifying number that relates directly to the company."

The SYMMDD-NN is sequential, and not only does it identify the plant of the company, it also identifies the date of manufacture and the LBR used.

kaynaky
Hello star_man_20, can this example be an exception; (with L084 mastering SID code)

Highly unlikely, but I cannot say it is completely impossible. I have logged one instance where an LBR letter was left off: https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/release/17155366-Dan-Baird-Buffalo-Nickel/image/SW1hZ2U6NTM1ODAwNDM=

I have not yet come across an instance where there was a typo in the Mastering SID itself, though.

1acoombs, please add a scan of the matrix of your variant 2 to the release.

star_man_20
The SYMMDD-NN is sequential, and not only does it identify the plant of the company, it also identifies the date of manufacture and the LBR used.

You don't listen and pretend you don't understand. No problems.

Same.Old.Me
star_man_20The SYMMDD-NN is sequential, and not only does it identify the plant of the company, it also identifies the date of manufacture and the LBR used.

You don't listen and pretend you don't understand. No problems.

B60927-03 Simken Heights - Religion Of The Beast
B60927-04 Bloody Stump - Brutal Beatings

Is this what you were wanting me to find for you?

star_man_20
I have not yet come across an instance where there was a typo in the Mastering SID itself, though.

Did you ever come across a typo on mastering sid code in Cinram, Richmond, IN?

star_man_20
Is this what you were wanting me to find for you?

This is not the matter.

The final appendix is not part of the cat.#. It's a separate information.

Same.Old.Me
You don't listen and pretend you don't understand. No problems.

Elvis Presley - Elvis 77-97 The Legend Lives On
C70717-10
C70717-11

The Band - A Musical History
C50827-03
C50827-04
D50827-04
D50827-05

I don't know if you want an explanation or some examples. Can you not get upset with me for not being able to read your mind?

kaynaky
star_man_20I have not yet come across an instance where there was a typo in the Mastering SID itself, though.
Did you ever come across a typo on mastering sid code in Cinram, Richmond, IN?

No.

Same.Old.Me
The final appendix is not part of the cat.#.

ok, explanation (I think).

the '-NN' (that you are calling the 'final appendix'?) is a number for each LBR that resets daily. So, first glass master of the day is '-01', and goes up for each additional glass master made by the LBR.

I presume you understand the date part. Are you understanding what I am trying to explain?

star_man_20
Are you understanding what I am trying to explain?

Yes, of course.

But IMHO a date can't be considered a catalog number only because it's followed by a sequential coda.

E.G.: If you look at https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/2064253-Cinram-Huntsville?page=4 all presumed cat.# are not in time sequence.

To obtain a real sequential cat.# we should eliminate the first letter of the string.

Same.Old.Me
Yes, of course.

But IMHO a date can't be considered a catalog number only because it's followed by a sequential coda.

E.G.: If you look at https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/2064253-Cinram-Huntsville?page=4 all presumed cat.# are not in time sequence.

To obtain a real sequential cat.# we should eliminate the first letter of the string.

ok, good. Sometimes I don't know if I need to try to explain something a different way to share understanding, or if it's me just not understanding the question.

So why can't a letter be part of a catalog number? I mean, Sony DADC catalog numbers start with FOUR letters. Olyphant glass masters start with a letter.
If I understand the confusion, it's that Cinram's matrix pattern was really simple, and yet it included a 'complex' catalog number comprised of 3 simple parts: A letter representing an LBR, a 5 digit calendar date, and counter that reset daily.

Some of those releases not in 'time sequence' can be explained with some simple answers:
1) the catalog number that appears wasn't the first glass master for that release, and we just need someone to add the missing variant with the original press' catalog number.
2) it's a reissue/repress and the date wasn't cleared.
3) the first print run wasn't manufactured at that plant. This might deserve some further discussion, but if this requires changes, it would affect second print runs at all manufacturers.

star_man_20
but if this requires changes, it would affect second print runs at all manufacturers.

In other labels very often the same cat.# in the list of releases includes the first press with all later presses. I can't see where's the problem because the later presses are identified by a different release date or are described as repress or reissues.

Same.Old.Me
star_man_20but if this requires changes, it would affect second print runs at all manufacturers.

In other labels very often the same cat.# in the list of releases includes the first press with all later presses. I can't see where's the problem because the later presses are identified by a different release date or are described as repress or reissues.

As in, the first press was manufactured at, say, Sonopress Arvato USA. The release was much more popular than originally anticipated, so 3 months later Big Label needed more pressings. Instead of returning to Sonopress, Big Label decided to have Technicolor make the discs instead. It being only 3 months after the album was released, would the Technicolor pressing be a repress?

This is what I mean with 'but if this requires changes, it would affect second print runs at all manufacturers.' Not including '3) the first print run wasn't manufactured at that plant.' changes the context of my statement.

Also some more potential explanations:
4) the release date is incorrect (either by entry typo or the source is incorrect)
5) the release was delayed into the next calendar year.
6) the release was reissued with new artwork, but the old glass master was re-used.

IRT 6), I submitted a 2003 release with a 2000 glass master date. The 2003 release is a reissue of a 2000 album, and all that changed was the packaging.

star_man_20, You can argue endlessly but the problem is that SYMMDD-XX numbers have not a time sequence and this is an essential requirement for a catalog number.
As far as I'm concerned, the discussion ends here.

Same.Old.Me
star_man_20, You can argue endlessly but the problem is that SYMMDD-XX numbers have not a time sequence and this is an essential requirement for a catalog number.
As far as I'm concerned, the discussion ends here.

Please stop distorting my explanations.

The first segment is a letter identifying the LBR.
The middle segment of the catalog number is a calendar date.
The end segment is an LBR's daily 'counter'.

And it is sequential.

And I explain one thing, then you change to another, then I explain it, then you try to attack at another angle. I defend from that angle, and suddenly

Same.Old.Me
As far as I'm concerned, the discussion ends here.

I started with believing you misunderstood how SYMMDD-XX is a catalog number, but after yet again distorting what I have said I am left with no option but to believe this is a bad faith attempt to achieve a goal I cannot yet see, but I still find disheartening.

star_man_20
The first segment is a letter identifying the LBR.
The middle segment of the catalog number is a calendar date.
The end segment is an LBR's daily 'counter'.

And it is sequential.

Absolutely not!
The letter identifying the LBR prevents a timeline in the label's list of releases.
Ergo: SYMMDD-XX can't be considered a cat.# because in label's list of releases we have simply many sequences related to every single LBR.

Opinions from Warepire would be much appreciated.

Same.Old.Me
The letter identifying the LBR prevents a timeline in the label's list of releases.

Again, astoundingly incorrect. DADC and Olyphant catalog numbers (just to name two mfg plants most s are familiar with) have a letter beginning the catalog number, and those letters do not prevent a timeline. Will you be coming after those companies next?

brianvy, you two might be interested in this discussion, too.