Sonopress vs. Arvato when no plant logo but Sony Music or Warner instead

Respective profiles contain somewhat contradictory information, and it's not very clear to me which plant should be credited for current CDs that include Sonopress / Arvato identifiers and Sony Music or Warner W or Universal logos.

Arvato - the branding chosen to represent the pressing plant in the CD matrix remains the 'arvato' logo, and so this label page should be used for 2011-2020 releases regardless.

In 2020, the Sonopress brand began appearing in disc matrices again, and the Arvato brand and logo has begun being phased out.

Question: which plant / brand should be credited for 2021 / 2022 and 2023 CDs matching matrix scheme and identifiers but with no "pressing plant" logo, and Sony Music, Warner W or Universal logos instead?

IMO, it'd be a shame if the answer were "none", because the sequence and knowledge these CDs are pressed by that plant in would be lost...

Makes sense to me to credit Sonopress, I think I a recent CD with the US pressing crediting Sonopress when the Euro / ROW one credited the major company - will try to find it again.

Daryl Hall - BeforeAfter - Euro edition - [Sony Music logo] 58136812/19439989582-1 21

inviting gemini80s and everyone else willing to have a look / share thoughts

(edited with example)

As per my last research about a year ago:

Arvato CD matrix logos ended January 2021 (last 57578388 Mr. Big - Lean Into It).

2022 and 2023 releases should be all Sonopress as far as I know.

2020 is going to be an issue as Sonopress started appearing around 5743xxxx (c.April).

IMO Sonopress should be used for all 2021 releases as well (January release=made in 2020).

I'm aware all Sonopress/Arvato/Digital Services profiles are in need of updates, will get on this project soon (just want to finish the DADC one I started a few months ago first)...

(added this to 1st post)

To sum up above, the only problematic numbers are 5743xxxx-5757xxxx for CDs as either Sonopress or Arvato logos appeared with these.

CD LCCN instructions should be:

2020 releases up to 5742xxxx = Arvato
numbers between 5743xxxx-5757xxxx = either Sonopress or Arvato
2021 and later releases = Sonopress (5758xxxx and up)

SACD LCCN instructions should be:

2020 releases = Arvato
2021 releases through 57xxxxxx = Arvato
numbers 58xxxxxx and up = Sonopress

Not sure if DVD logos cut off at same point as CDs or slightly later...

It's possible some later Arvato numbers have been added to db since my last research so above numbers will be amended if I find any.

These things should be added to the notes of the company. If a logo or text is on a release it is ridiculous to ask the submitter to stop and exhaustively search through forum posts just in case a company reverted after a takeover. Whilst useful information of course.

_jules
inviting Myriad gemini80s and everyone else willing to have a look / share thoughts

Thanks for the ping. It looks like gemini has already provided better information than I would have been able to.

gemini80s
CD LCCN instructions should be:

2020 releases up to 5742xxxx = Arvato
numbers between 5743xxxx-5757xxxx = either Sonopress or Arvato
2021 and later releases = Sonopress (5758xxxx and up)

I think this is good guidance, but IMO we should be more definite on the 5743xxxx-5757xxxx releases. It is of course problematic that both logos were used for a period, but in the interest of making it easier on s and making the database a bit easier to interpret, IMO we should just choose to credit Arvato or Sonopress for all releases in this period. Personally I would be happy to just credit Sonopress for any matrix number after the first re-occurance of the Sonopress logo with a disclaimer that the Arvato logo was also still used for a while during the transition period.

CompaktDiskz
These things should be added to the notes of the company. If a logo or text is on a release it is ridiculous to ask the submitter to stop and exhaustively search through forum posts just in case a company reverted after a takeover. Whilst useful information of course.

The point of this thread is to agree on what information should be added to the profile :)

Hi,
thanks, looks like it's (almost) settled, then
thanks for the thorough research

I tend to agree with

Myriad
in the interest of making it easier on s and making the database a bit easier to interpret, IMO we should just choose to credit Arvato or Sonopress for all releases in this period. Personally I would be happy to just credit Sonopress for any matrix number after the first re-occurance of the Sonopress logo with a disclaimer that the Arvato logo was also still used for a while during the transition period.

As for

CompaktDiskz
If a logo or text is on a release it is ridiculous to ask the submitter to stop and exhaustively search through forum posts just in case a company reverted after a takeover.

of course, but what's being discussed here is matrix in the form of [Sony Music logo] / [Warner W logo] / [4 x Universal logos] + matrix scheme & sid codes identifying that German plant that keeps flip flopping between brand names, the idea certainly isn't to credit Sonopress when there's an explicit Arvato logo or credit, nor vice versa

Myriad
The point of this thread is to agree on what information should be added to the profile :)

Great. Again though, the release that I submitted contains neither logo of arvarto or sonopress. What’s worrying me is if I add something in future I need to scour forum posts to gleam the corrrct pressing plant information.

CompaktDiskz
What’s worrying me is if I add something in future I need to scour forum posts to gleam the corrrct pressing plant information.

That's not the idea. This thread is exactly trying to solve this for the Sonopress / Arvato current "conundrum": as clear as possible instructions in respective profiles.

As a side note, the 2 other CD editions of that Iggy Pop album went for Sonopress. Even if current profiles / instructions are not 101% clear, seems some / most s are already going for Sonopress for current CDs featuring Sony / Warner / Universal logos only.

The idea really is to make it explicit in company profiles and mark this thread as "Solved" as soon as possible.

If the plant changed names back to sonopress (but still sometimes used the Arvato logo) any non branded pressings after the name change should go to the sonopress page. It’s the simplest way of doing things. IMO.

Silvermo
If the plant changed names back to sonopress (but still sometimes used the Arvato logo) any non branded pressings after the name change should go to the sonopress page. It’s the simplest way of doing things.

I agree.

DVDs and SACDs need some more research to determine first appearance of Sonopress matrix logo (those formats may have been more consistent with matrix logos than CDs during 2020)...

Some interesting releases using both logos:

Steps - What The Future Holds
Arvato 57433703/538606032 21 (original master on image)
Sonopress 57433703/538606032 22 (BaOI=repress)

Dave Eggers Gelesen Von Matthias Matschke - Der Größte Kapitän Aller Zeiten
Matrix / Runout (CD1): arvato 57439823/978344540437-CD1 21
Matrix / Runout (CD2): Sonopress 57439827/978344540437-CD2 22

Plant uses 21 for first masters, 22=2nd, 23=3rd, etc...

Another repress?:
57430211 Sparks - A Steady Drip, Drip, Drip

Earliest known original master with new Sonopress logo:
57438945 Emil Nikolaus Von Reznicek, Minguet Quartett - Five String Quartets

Sonopress CD logos were consistent after above number so this confirms the cutoff at 5743xxxx:
57439468 Max Giesinger - Die Reise (Akustik Version)
57441923 Anne Clark - Unstill Life
57442169 Folk Songs Of China's Tajik & Russian Minorities
57442679 Rufus Wainwright - Unfollow The Rules
57443828 57443831 57443834 57443837 Eva Almstädt - Ostseegruft
57443963 Petronella Apfelmus - Wer Schleicht Denn Da Durchs Erdbeerbeet?
57445158 Steve Howe - Love Is

Based on above I suggest a simple number for CDs 5744xxxx and up = Sonopress (but if we want to be more accurate 57439xxx is more precise).

I went through 2004/05 releases to check for last original Sonopress logos (confirmed with images):

Last known CD:
51195638 Double Concerto, Symphony No. 2 (Aug 2004; 16 or 31 depending on source)
51261510 Mistheria - Messenger Of The Gods (Nov 23, 2004)*
*this one is strange and way out of sequence, so I would disregard it for profile instructions

Sonopress Arvato matrix logos started appearing consistently at 5119xxxx:
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/268910-Sonopress-Arvato?page=15&genre=All&limit=50

Last known SACD:
51343614 Symphony No. 1 • Tragic Overture • Academic Festival Overture (Feb 22, 2005)

Last known DVD:
51369935 Primordial - The Gathering Wilderness (Feb 28, 2005)

So based on legal name change from Sonopress to Sonopress Arvato on July 1, 2004 it appears CD machines were updated with new matrix logo right on that date. The last SACD/DVD machines were probably updated in January 2005 (production of original Sonopress logos likely lasted until the end of 2004).

LCCN instructions for logo-less matrices should be something like this:

CDs (2004 releases):
numbers up to 51194xxx = Sonopress
51196xxx and up = Sonopress Arvato

SACDs (2005 releases):
numbers up to 51342xxx = Sonopress
51344xxx and up = Sonopress Arvato

DVDs (2005 releases):
numbers through 5136xxxx = Sonopress
5137xxxx and up = Sonopress Arvato

Since the Sonopress Arvato matrix logo is often entered/misread as Sonopress (Arvato print is very small), this note should be a good guidance:
ALL Sonopress LCCN entries for 2005-2019 releases with matrix numbers 5137xxxx and up must be incorrect (there are around 600 such wrong entries in db at the moment, and an additional 100+ CDs from 2004!)
All 2005 CDs made by this plant should be credited to Sonopress Arvato.

Last known Sonopress Arvato matrix logos:

CD
52650681 Martha Wainwright - I Know You're Married But I've Got Feelings Too (May 12, 2008)
(this is the only 5265xxxx code I could find)

SACD
52639594 Le Temps Et L'Écume - Les Chants De L'Amour (2008)

DVD
52647410 The Hacker - X (June 10, 2008)

Despite Arvato Digital Services being established October 1, 2007, the Sonopress Arvato logos were still used consistently until the middle of 2008. All machines were updated with the Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann logo around the same time.

Arvato Digital Services matrix logos started appearing consistently after 5264xxxx:
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/265781-Arvato-Digital-Services?page=13&genre=All&limit=50

So LCCN instructions for 2008 releases should be easy:

Numbers through 5264xxxx = Sonopress Arvato
5265xxxx and up = Arvato Digital Services

All 2007 releases by this plant should be credited to Sonopress Arvato.

Last known Arvato Digital Services matrix logos:

CD
55342143 Lacuna Coil - Unleashed Memories (Dec 31, 2012)

DVD
55326798 Michael Schenker - Temple Of Rock - Live In Europe (Nov 30, 2012)

SACD
54849214 Ars Nova Copenhagen, Paul Hillier With Andrew Lawrence-King - A Bridge Of Dreams (Nov 2011)

The Arvato Digital Services Bertelsmann logo completely disappeared from SACDs machines by late 2011, while some CDs and DVDs still contained that logo until the end of 2012. However, the new Arvato logos also started in CD matrices late 2011 and were rather consistent until late 2012 when Arvato Digital Services logos reappeared for the last time (both logos sometimes used in conjunction). It is interesting that Arvato matrix logos preceded the official company naming by about half a year (that did apparently not occur until March/October 26, 2012)....

Arvato Digital Services logos originally ended around 5486xxxx (late 2011), then reappeared around 5521xxxx (late 2012):
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/504648-Arvato?page=20&genre=All&limit=50

For now, I only have LCCN instructions for SACDs (2011 releases):
numbers through 5484xxxxx = Arvato Digital Services
5485xxxx and up = Arvato (includes all 2012 releases)

CD (and possibly DVD) instructions will be more complicated...

Update on https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/990421#10078738

Last known Arvato matrix logos:

CD
57589366 Solitude Aeturnus - Alone

DVD
57578388 Le Coucher Du Roi (Musiques Pour La Chambre De Louis XIV) (Jan 8, 2021)

SACD
58080256 Eldorado - A Symphony By The Electric Light Orchestra (Mar 29, 2022; 2021 copyrights)

If confirmed, this means Arvato was still used in SACDs at least until the end of 2021.
This should complicate LCCN instructions even further, but some conclusions can be reached:

Any CD/DVD by this plant with matrix # 5759xxxx or higher should be credited to Sonopress.

CompaktDiskz
These things should be added to the notes of the company.

Yes, I agree with your comments. When I contributed to Arvato and used ARVATO as it stated:

5xxxxxxx is a number assigned by Arvato for internal cataloguing. Typically in conjunction with mould SID code IFPI 07xx. Certain clients, such as Sony Music or Warner, may replace the Arvato logo with their own, or there may be no logo present at all. Arvato may still be identified on such CDs by the matrix format, 5xxxxxxx matrix number and mould SID code IFPI 07xx.

I recall going through multiple forums to see if there was anything different I ought to do, but I lost interest due to the high volume of numerous posts.

It would be beneficial if Arvato is refreshed with, "Any CD/DVD by this plant with matrix # 5759xxxx or higher should be credited to Sonopress".

su-ki9533
CompaktDiskz
These things should be added to the notes of the company.

I added some basic instructions to Arvato profile for now, other profiles will be updated with similar info soon.

gemini80s
I added some basic instructions to Arvato profile for now, other profiles will be updated with similar info soon.

Thank you.

Arvato Digital Services profiles have also been updated, please review/comment if instructions are clear enough, thanks.

Not sure which format we should keep in Sonopress profile for 8 digit codes:
5####### (as originally started) or 5xxxxxxx (as used in other profiles)

The issue with Sonopress is that it also has X-####[#] codes (X=letter)...

Looks perfect to me, thanks much!

Explanation for overlapping Arvato and Sonopress matrix logos during late 2020 (5752xxxx-5758xxxx numbers):

Basically the Arvato logo originally ended at 57438xxx as machines were updated with new Sonopress logo in early 2020.

However, the IFPI LB 46 machine was not yet updated, only not used again until 5752xxxx.

Last known pre-Sonopress appearances of Arvato logo on CD:

Beethoven*, Tetzlaff Quartett - String Quartets Opp. 132 & 130/133
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): arvato 57426109/ODE1347-2D-1 21 IFPI LB 46
Mastering SID Code (CD 1): IFPI LB 46
Mould SID Code (CD 1): IFPI 071Z

As we can see in below example, IFPI LB47 and IFPI LP 73 have Sonopress, IFPI LB 46 is still Arvato:

Shakin' Stevens - Singled Out - The Definitive Singles Collection
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): Sonopress 57538327/BMGCAT475TCD1 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 1): IFPI LB47
Mould SID Code (CD 1): IFPI 0787
Matrix / Runout (CD 2): Sonopress 57538314/BMGCAT475TCD2 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 2): IFPI LP 73
Mould SID Code (CD 2): IFPI 0723
Matrix / Runout (CD 3): arvato 57538311/BMGCAT475TCD3 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 3): IFPI LB 46
Mould SID Code (CD 3): IFPI 0778

As we can in below example, the IFPI LB 46 matrix now also has the Sonopress logo at 5759xxxx:

Various - Greatest Ever Feelgood Anthems
Matrix / Runout (CD 2): Sonopress 57598460/GTST4CDW13CD2 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 2): IFPI LB 46
Mould SID Code (CD 2): IFPI 073Z

This is why Arvato LCCN can still be used with 5752xxxx-5758xxxx numbers but ONLY in conjunction with mastering SID IFPI LB 46.

I have a question. I saw the edit on Roger Waters - Us + Them changing from Avarto to Sonopress as ( 57446871) is above the cut-off of 5744xxxx

What about this one from the same year?
Nick Mason's Saucerful Of Secrets - Live At The Roundhouse

Here the numbers are 5741xxxx and 5742xxxx
(57415921, 57415927, 57420592, 57420593)

These two albums are released within weeks of each other - 18th Sept 2020 and 2nd Oct 2020. Both have matrixes that look very similar. Both have Sony Music logos. Both have identical patterns of numbers. And share SIDs. What is it that I need to focus on to tell why one is Arvato and the other Sonopress?

Or are these Nick Mason CDs about to change your cut-off to 5741xxxx and not 5744xxxx?

Thanks

Rog CDs
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): [Sony Music logo] 57446871/19439707712-1 22
Mastering SID Code (CD 1): IFPI LB 45
Mould SID Code (CD 1): IFPI 0736
Matrix / Runout (CD 2): [Sony Music logo] 57446874/19439707712-2 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 2): IFPI LB47
Mould SID Code (CD 2): IFPI 0720

Nick CDs
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): [Sony Music logo] 57415921/19075982722-1 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 1): IFPI LB45
Mould SID Code (CD 1): IFPI 07K9
Matrix / Runout (CD 2): [Sony Music logo] 57415927/19075982722-2 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 2): IFPI LB47
Mould SID Code (CD 2): IFPI 07E8

Arvato Digital Services and Arvato matrix logos similarly overlapped during late 2012 (5520xxxx-5534xxxx numbers).

Arvato logo replaced Arvato Digital Services BERTELSMANN in matrix late 2011.

The IFPI LB47 machine last used the Arvato Digital Services matrix logo in 2011 around # 54862533: Schönberg* ┃ Berg* ┃ Webern* - The RIAS Second Viennese School Project # 55209518.

Some multiple disc release examples from that period:

Gorement - Within The Shadow Of Darkness (The Complete Recordings)
Matrix / Runout (CD1): [arvato logo] 55236318/9982552-2 22
Matrix / Runout (CD2): [Arvato Digital Services logo] 55236285/9982552-1 21
Mastering SID Code (CD1): IFPI LB46
Mastering SID Code (CD2): IFPI LB47

Mark Twain (2) Gelesen Von Harry Rowohlt - Meine Geheime Autobiographie
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): [Arvato logo] 55247786/9783837117264-1 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 1): IFPI LB 45
Matrix / Runout (CD 2): [Arvato Digital Services logo] 55247839/9783837117264-2 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 2): IFPI LB47
Matrix / Runout (CD 3): [Arvato logo] 55247842/9783837117264-3 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 3): IFPI LB 46
Matrix / Runout (CD 4): [Arvato logo] 55247845/9783837117264-4 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 4): IFPI LP 73

Cryptopsy - The Best Of Us Bleed
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): [arvato digital services logo] 55285383/9982062-1 22
Matrix / Runout (CD 2): arvato 55285386/9982062-2 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 1 ): IFPI LB47
Mastering SID Code (CD 2): IFPI LP 73

Bauhaus - 5 Albums
Matrix / Runout (CD1, Variant 1, 2, 3, 5): [Arvato Digital Services logo] 55334567/CAD2901CDP 21
Mastering SID Code (CD1, Variant 1, 2, 3, 5): IFPI LB47
Matrix / Runout (CD2, Variant 1, 2, 3, 5): [Arvato logo] 55334984/BBQCD2061CDP 21
Mastering SID Code (CD2, Variant 1, 2, 3, 5): IFPI LP 73

As we can see below, the LB 47 matrices reverted back to the 'arvato' logo at 5534xxxx:

Riverside - Shrine Of New Generation Slaves
Matrix / Runout (Variant 1): arvato 55347264/0506302 21
Mastering SID Code (Variant 1): IFPI LB47
Mould SID Code (Variant 1): IFPI 076Y

This is why Arvato Digital Services LCCN can still be used with 5520xxxx-5534xxxx numbers but ONLY in conjunction with mastering SID IFPI LB47.

Edited/updated some wrong findings proven with further research below:
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/990421#10122946

Updated Arvato profiles again with more info (clearer/uniform LCCN instructions for all with links to other profiles), plus example releases without logo.

IvanDobsky
These two albums are released within weeks of each other - 18th Sept 2020 and 2nd Oct 2020. Both have matrixes that look very similar. Both have Sony Music logos. Both have identical patterns of numbers. And share SIDs. What is it that I need to focus on to tell why one is Arvato and the other Sonopress?

Or are these Nick Mason CDs about to change your cut-off to 5741xxxx and not 5744xxxx?

Release dates are irrelevant, I don't see any reason why this changes anything as Sonopress logo replaced Arvato at c. 57439xxx. It just means that Nick CDs were made before the Rog CDs. So one is credited to Arvato, other to Sonopress, simple as that.

gemini80s
So one is credited to Arvato, other to Sonopress, simple as that.

I am not doubting your knowledge, I am just interested in how you know? Your research is fascinating. Just gets a bit confusing to some of us.

I can also certainly see some of these release dates moving around and being delayed in 2020 due to the "stay at home" dramas of the time.

IvanDobsky
how you know? Your research is fascinating. Just gets a bit confusing to some of us.

I basically check every borderline release (and additionally search for numbers not yet entered in LCCN for a bigger sample size) to find some definitive cutoff points. As you see I needed more research to find out why some logos overlapped.

I completely understand the last part. But accuracy is the most important as long as profiles are not too complicated, right?

IvanDobsky
I can also certainly see some of these release dates moving around and being delayed in 2020 due to the "stay at home" dramas of the time.

I'm sure both were delayed as discs were mastered in early 2020...

Good to see the old rule of "Don't use matrix details to set manufacturing" is now being ignored. You've done some great analysis on many of these manufacturers. I am just curious as to how you are working out how to allocate the "Sony Music" ones while the main plant is changing company branding. Especially as you seem to find some machines are changing over later than others.

Are you sure the CDs are pressed in numerical order? Or are you basing this on when the number was allocated before anything is physically pressed?

I also guess we can't really tell when Nick's second batch of CDs are pressed. Technically a second run will come from Sonopress instead of Arvato.

IvanDobsky
sure the CDs are pressed in numerical order? Or are you basing this on when the number was allocated before anything is physically pressed?

I think you mean the mastering process which is when matrices are produced.

Of course 5xxxxxxx numbers are allocated beforehand, but since there is very little overlap with these codes from one plant logo to the other, this plant has been rather consistent with numerical orders (also judging from release dates).

It's impossible to tell when 22+ masters have been made but with 21 and 5xxxxxxx codes you can guess pretty accurately up to a month, especially with various mastering SID codes being used by this plant at different times.

It's always a possibility that some discs were pressed much later than their matrix codes indicate, there really is no way to determine that from mould SID codes. I really have no idea how to determine a repress from this plant, only new masters...

IvanDobsky
I am just curious as to how you are working out how to allocate the "Sony Music" ones

Not sure what you mean by that, but matrix logos are linked to plant master numbers (21=first) and SID mastering codes.

gemini80s
I see you just recently updated Arvato "…as defined by the 'arvato' logo present in the matrix of many discs manufactured by this plant after the adoption of the 'arvato' branding in late 2011.
The 'Arvato Digital Services' branding did persist until at least late 2012 on certain machinery, so please use that entry on post-2011 releases when that logo is present in the matrix."

Then below: "…nevertheless, the branding chosen to represent the pressing plant in the CD matrix remained the 'arvato' logo during 2011-2020, so this label page should be used for those releases regardless."

[Bolding above is my emphasis]

But of course for this release there's no "Arvato" or "Arvato Digital Services" logo, only "Sony".
The release in question was released Nov 2011 (therefore late 2011).

Seems we have the same problem back then as now.

This is not an attack. Just an observation that the same question needs answering here too.

Relooking at the sub only variant 2 has the "Sony Music" logo (like my copy, which was bought in Feb 23, 2020 (received Mar 3, 2020).

Maybe variant 1 and 2 need to be split (?). Variant 2 was added only a year ago, while variant 1 goes back 11 years ago when originally submitted.

The images from 4 years ago have the "Sony Music" logo. Maybe variant 1's logo was omitted/ignored, as seems many s did back then (as in this case, 11 years ago). So, maybe no split after all. Still, begs the question which really should be correct Arvato or Arvato Digital Services?

theksmusik
you just recently updated Kansas (2) - The Classic Albums Collection 1974-1983 from Arvato to Arvato Digital Services citing per profile. However, the original entry as Arvato also seems correct per both profiles.

I updated it because those glass master numbers are all between 54823672-54823943, which is well outside the margin of error if you see my analysis here:
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/990421#10111057

Arvato consistently replaced the Arvato Digital Services logo at 5486xxxx. Only a few earlier numbers with 21 masters have the Arvato logo. Earliest Arvato matrices now on this page:
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/504648-Arvato?page=17&genre=All&limit=50

These matrix numbers are a far more accurate representation of manufacturing dates than actual release dates (this is a compilation, discs were mastered much earlier than Nov 14 date indicates). I believe having these cutoff numbers in profiles is very beneficial so now we don't have to rely on release dates so much anymore (if at all).

theksmusik
The images from 4 years ago have the "Sony Music" logo. Maybe variant 1's logo was omitted/ignored, as seems many s did back then (as in this case, 11 years ago). So, maybe no split after all.

Variant 2 matrices have exactly the same numbers, which means the Sony Music logo must also be present in variant 1.

Maybe you missed the instructions on label pages:

Arvato Digital Services
Certain clients such as Sony BMG Music Entertainment or Sony Music may replace the 'arvato digital services BERTELSMANN' matrix logo with their own, or there may be no logo present at all. Arvato Digital Services may still be identified on such discs by above SID codes, the matrix format and number 5xxxxxxx. This LCCN entry should be used with matrix numbers between 5265xxxx-5485xxxx (2008-2011 releases) and in conjunction with mastering SID code LB 47 also 5521xxxx-5534xxxx (2012 releases). For other numbers, see Sonopress Arvato, Arvato or Sonopress.

Arvato:
Certain clients such as Sony Music or Warner may replace the Arvato logo with their own, or there may be no logo present at all. Arvato may still be identified on such discs by above SID codes, the matrix format and number 5xxxxxxx. This LCCN entry should be used with matrix numbers between 5486xxxx-5743xxxx and in conjunction with mastering SID code LB 46 also 5752xxxx-5758xxxx. For other numbers, see Arvato Digital Services, Sonopress Arvato or Sonopress.

Do you also think these instructions are too complicated? I'm curious because I've received some negative ...

gemini80s
OK, maybe I missed the bit about the numbers. I saw what you wrote above about the new situation, maybe I missed that you were also looking at the past one too?

Yeah, it is a lot to take in all at once and I haven't really studied the numbers yet. I guess I'll need to re-read this later when I have more time to digest it.

Looking at Arvato Digital Services there is no break down on the sequential numbers — I see now in the submission notes you reference this thread (didn't think to look there). Perhaps when this is all settled (as I'm sure you're still researching this), this info or the link needs to be in the profile text. And likewise in the other profiles.

No doubt it will all be somewhat complicated until you get all your ducks in a row (so-to-speak), then it will probably easier to explain it all more logically and maybe you'll get more helpful & cooperation too.

I'm sure star_man_20 has/had the same kind of problems when he was/is working out Cinram and Technicolor [both North America only, I believe] (now seems Technicolor is possibly rebranded to Vantiva after company split in Sep 2022, [plant name so far isn't in CD matrices either way]). I wonder if anyone pinged him in that thread yet.

gemini80s
Variant 2 matrices have exactly the same numbers, which means the Sony Music logo must also be present in variant 1.

Good point. Should've thought of that myself.

gemini80s - thank you for your time to explain. Funny how the timing of my two CDs are either side of the branding change. Kinda fitting as those two ex-Pink Floyd are not exactly on speaking . Haha.

I also find it interesting as it is showing some of the release delays caused by covid.

Maybe this post will help understand the codes better.

Sonopress X-xxxxx sequential matrix codes ended in early 2002 (last known letter code A-72552 The Spook - Some Like It Dead). The sequence continued with 8-digit 5xxxxxxx numbers still in use today.

Sub-5024xxxx numbers are all reissues. Lowest known 8-digit numbers are 50143077 with Sonopress Arvato logo (Pachelbel's Greatest Hit Canon In D).

5xxxxxxx matrix codes used by plant with corresponding release years (rough estimates):

2002: 5025xxxx-5062xxxx (started c. April)
2003: 5055xxxx-5099xxxx (5093-5097xxxxx are reissues)
2004: 5089xxxx-5132xxxx (Sonopress Arvato logo starts at 5119xxxx)
2005: 5129xxxx-5171xxxx (Sonopress/DVD logo ends at 5136xxxx)
2006: 5168xxxx-5209xxxx
2007: 5205xxxx-5251xxxx
2008: 5246xxxx-5338xxxx (Arvato Digital Services logo starts at 5264xxxx)
2009: 5334xxxx-5393xxxx
2010: 5390xxxx-5442xxxx
2011: 5436xxxx-5492xxxx (Arvato logo starts at 5486xxxx)
2012: 5490xxxx-5534xxxx (Arvato Digital Services logo ends at 55342xxx)
2013: 5529xxxx-5567xxxx
2014: 5564xxxx-5598xxxx
2015: 5596xxxx-5624xxxx
2016: 5618xxxx-5649xxxx
2017: 5646xxxx-5687xxxx
2018: 5682xxxx-5713xxxx
2019: 5711xxxx-5738xxxx
2020: 5735xxxx-5758xxxx (Sonopress logo starts at 57440xxx)
2021: 5754xxxx-5810xxxx
2022: 5805xxxx-5826xxxx (SACDs/Arvato logos end)
2023: 5822xxxx-

That list would be good to add that to the label pages. Too often good details like that are lost deep in a long thread.

IvanDobsky
That list would be good to add that to the label pages.

Yes it definitely belongs in the Sonopress profile once these early estimates are refined a bit. I also have the X-xxxxx codes list going back to 1970 but that one is much more complicated...maybe would be better to use a new thread for these?

Rather than adding the (finalised) list / timeline itself to the profile(s), a link to a post in this thread could be added to the profiles, like it's done @ Wea Olyphant for the approx. glass master dates, what do you think?
When profiles get too detailed / long it can become "overwhelming", I find "See xxxxxx for detailed timeline of brands & logos / approx. dates" can be more helpful

Perhaps there could be a "simplified" timeline just for CDs, as it's what's gonna be useful to the most s + dedicated timelines for DVDs and SACDs?

Perhaps something like
Sonopress
2002:
2003
2004:
Sonopress ==> Sonopress Arvato:
2004:
2005:
2006:
2007:
2008:
Sonopress Arvato ==> Arvato Digital Services
2008:
2009:
2010:
2011:
Overlapping of Arvato DS and Arvato logos
2011:
2012:
Arvato:
2012:
2013:
[...]
2020:
Arvato ==> Sonopress:
2020:
2021:
etc.

In any case, this is great resources, thanks again for the research ;-)

_jules
Rather than adding the (finalised) list / timeline itself to the profile(s), a link to a post in this thread could be added to the profiles, like it's done @ Wea Olyphant for the approx. glass master dates, what do you think?
When profiles get too detailed / long it can become "overwhelming", I find "See xxxxxx for detailed timeline of brands & logos / approx. dates" can be more helpful

Perhaps there could be a "simplified" timeline just for CDs, as it's what's gonna be useful to the most s + dedicated timelines for DVDs and SACDs?

Yes great idea, I'll create a new one just for CDs, that one will be linked across all profiles.

SACDs definitely need a separate chart. That one will me much less precise because there are so few SACDs in the database compared to CDs.

DVD plant logos generally matched CDs after 2005, so a note in CD chart could be enough if we decide they mirror the the CD instructions.

Blu-rays never included a plant logo in matrix, so they should be credited as per CD (DVD) instructions.

I have to correct some of my findings from https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/990421#10118020

IFPI LB47 (along with other SID codes) also changed to Arvato logo already as of 5487xxxx (late 2011) as confirmed by Magnum (3) - So Let It Rain).

I can't find any 5519 numbers with plant logos, but 55212295 Christoph Maria Herbst Liest Timur Vermes - Er Ist Wieder Da further confirms the old logos were back in use as of 5521xxxx (late 2012).

So this proves the plant actually reinstated Arvato Digital Services matrix logos after almost a year (this period only lasted a few months). I have no idea why that happened, but I don't think it should make any difference in of LCCN instructions. Or should we disregard this phenomenon and only credit Arvato Digital Services for 2012 discs when that logo is present in matrix?

SACD sequential matrix codes timeline:

Original Sonopress logo only (used mid/late 2000-mid 2004)
SACD- prefix with 3-digit numbers:
2000: 001-0xx (first known Gerard Presencer - Platypus)
2001: 0xx-5xx
2002: 5xx-8xx (last known 803 The Rolling Stones - Flowers)
Sequence continued with 8-digit numbers (adopted mid 2002):
2002: 503xxxxx-506xxxxx (first known 50374717 Creedence Clearwater Revival - Cosmo's Factory)
2003: 5055xxxx-509xxxxx
2004: 509xxxxx-5119xxxx

Sonopress+Sonopress Arvato logos (used 2nd half of 2004)*
2004: 512xxxxx-5131xxxx
2005: 5127xxxx-51343614 (last known Sonopress Symphony No. 1 • Tragic Overture • Academic Festival Overture)
*Sonopress Arvato logo was originally used only in SACD layer in conjunction with Sonopress logo (CD layer) at least until the end of 2004.

Sonopress Arvato logo only (used 2005-mid 2008)
2005: 5132xxxx-516xxxxx
2006: 5160xxxx-520xxxxx
2007: 5205xxxx-524xxxxx
2008: 5246xxxx-52639594 (last known Arvato Digital Services logo (used mid 2008-late 2011)
2008: 526xxxxx-533xxxxx
2009: 533xxxxx-538xxxxx
2010: 540xxxxx-543xxxxx
2011: 543xxxxx-54849214 (last known Arvato logo only (used late 2011-early 2020)
2011: 5482xxxx-548xxxxx
2012: 549xxxxx-553xxxxx
2013: 553xxxxx-556xxxxx
2014: 556xxxxx-559xxxxx
2015: 559xxxxx-5622xxxx
2016: 562xxxxx-564xxxxx
2017: 564xxxxx-568xxxxx
2018: 568xxxxx-571xxxxx
2019: 5711xxxx-573xxxxx
2020: 573xxxxx-574xxxxx (last known Arvato only 57404669 Sonopress logos (used early 2020-end 2021?)**
2020: 5745xxxx-575xxxxx
2021: 575xxxxx-579xxxxx
2022: 579xxxxx-58080256 (last known SACD Eldorado - A Symphony By The Electric Light Orchestra)

**New Sonopress logo (CD layer) always appeared in conjunction with Arvato logo (SACD layer) until the end of SACD production by plant (likely end of 2021).

8-digit CD sequential matrix codes sorted by plant logos (since 2002):

5014xxxx-5024xxxx numbers are reissues (may appear with any below logo), lower don't exist.

Original Sonopress logo (used 1998-mid 2004)
2002: 5025xxxx-5062xxxx
2003: 5055xxxx-5099xxxx (5093xxxx-5097xxxx are reissues)
2004: 5089xxxx-5119xxxx (51195638 Sonopress Arvato logo (used mid 2004-mid 2008)
2004: 5119xxxx-5132xxxx
2005: 5129xxxx-5171xxxx
2006: 5168xxxx-5209xxxx
2007: 5205xxxx-5251xxxx
2008: 5246xxxx-52650681 (last known Arvato Digital Services logo (used mid 2008-end 2012)
2008: 5264xxxx-5338xxxx
2009: 5334xxxx-5393xxxx
2010: 5390xxxx-5442xxxx
2011: 5436xxxx-54863xxx
2012: 5520xxxx-55342143* (last known Lacuna Coil - Unleashed Memories)
*these numbers overlapped with Arvato logo but only mastering SID IFPI LB47

Arvato logo (used late 2011-end 2020)
2011: 5486xxxx-5492xxxx
2012: 5490xxxx-5534xxxx
2013: 5529xxxx-5567xxxx
2014: 5564xxxx-5598xxxx
2015: 5596xxxx-5624xxxx
2016: 5618xxxx-5649xxxx
2017: 5646xxxx-5687xxxx
2018: 5682xxxx-5713xxxx
2019: 5711xxxx-5738xxxx
2020: 5735xxxx-57589366** (last known Solitude Aeturnus - Alone)
**5752xxxx-5758xxxx overlapped with Sonopress logo but only mastering SID IFPI LB46

New Sonopress logo (used since early/mid 2020)
2020: 57440xxx-5758xxxx
2021: 5754xxxx-5810xxxx
2022: 5805xxxx-5826xxxx
2023: 5822xxxx-

Earliest Sonopress DVDs from 1997-2002 apparently included the DVD- prefix and 4-digit job number in matrix (similar to SACD- prefix used for those pre-2002 discs):

DVD-0028 Paul Simon - Graceland 1997
DVD-0031 Pet Shop Boys - Somewhere (Pet Shop Boys In Concert) Nov 28, 1997
DVD-0113 The Jimi Hendrix Experience - Electric Ladyland 1997
DVD-0149 Markus Karas (2) - Great Organ Works - French Romantic 1998
DVD-0667 DVD-0668 Janet Jackson - The Velvet Rope Tour Live In Concert 1998
DVD-1458 DVD-1459 Depeche Mode - The Videos 86>98 Mar 20, 2000
DVD-1951 DVD-1952 The Artist (Formerly Known As Prince) - Rave Un2 The Year 2000 2000
DVD-2152 Nico (3) - An Underground Experience + Heroine 2000
DVD-2903 DVD-2904 Guano Apes - Don't Give Me Names Oct 30, 2000
DVD-3012 Hawkwind - The Chronicle Of The Black Sword 2000
DVD-4352 Ash - Sometimes Jul 9, 2001
DVD-4674 DVD-4675 Various - Sensation 2001 Sep 2001
DVD-5393 DVD-5405 DVD-5408 Stereophonics - Limited Edition Nov 19, 2001
DVD-5433 Basement Jaxx - Where's Your Head At Nov 26, 2001
DVD-6091 Elbow - Asleep In The Back / Coming Second Feb 4, 2002
DVD-6570 Britney Spears - Britney Jun 1, 2002
DVD-6607 Within Temptation - Mother Earth 2002

DVDs apparently adopted the 8-digit number format around the same time as CDs (mid-2002):
50264903 50264904 Various - Disco Of The 80's 2002
50293322 Sonopress profile should also include additional LCCN instructions for DVD-#### matrix codes.

Myriad
Personally I would be happy to just credit Sonopress for any matrix number after the first re-occurance of the Sonopress logo with a disclaimer that the Arvato logo was also still used for a while during the transition period.

This makes the most sense to me. If we know that Sonopress is the actual company manufacturing a release, then that is who should be credited, regardless of a 'legacy' Arvato logo. Worse yet is crediting Arvato based on a perceived pattern in the job numbers even after Sonopress is known to have taken over.

See this edit, which just seems wrong to me:
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/release/16038492-Into-The-Mirror-Black/history#latest

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work that gemini80s has done, but I think that the path chosen for dealing with this transition period may be the wrong one.

somewhatdistantghost
legacy' Arvato logo

All SACDs made after Sonopress was re-introduced in early 2020 always included both logos until the end of 2021. Are we supposed to not credit Arvato with that logo present in those discs as you seem to be suggesting? Why should the CDs be treated differently as SACDs?

I have no issue with crediting Sonopress after # 57440000, its LCCN instructions are rather clear about that. I also see no harm having that extra detail in Arvato profile instructions for those who prefer to be more accurate.

The easy 5744xxxx cutoff solution would seem more rational if it wasn't for those SACDs...

gemini80s
Are we supposed to not credit Arvato with that logo present in those discs as you seem to be suggesting?

My thinking is: it's unreasonable to think that, on the day that Sonopress 'took over,' every trace of Arvato was obliterated before any further production took place. This is what I mean by a 'legacy logo.' Maybe it took two weeks before every machine in the plant(s) was adjusted, maybe it took two months, who knows? Why should we credit a company that we know was no longer active simply because a logo or mastering code hadn't yet been updated?

And that Sanctuary edit linked above is not even about a logo - it's because there is a space in the mastering code, and a perceived pattern in job numbers.

As I mentioned above, the way that Myriad suggested this transition be handled makes sense to me.

gemini80s
I also see no harm having that extra detail in Arvato profile instructions for those who prefer to be more accurate.

Is it more accurate, though, to credit a company that we know was no longer functioning, simply due to Sonopress technicians not adjusting their machines within a time frame that would be more convenient for our catag efforts?

somewhatdistantghost
Maybe it took two weeks before every machine in the plant(s) was adjusted, maybe it took two months, who knows

It obviously took almost 2 years (probably would have been longer if SACD production had continued beyond 2021). Sonopress could have easily updated the SACD machines like they did for CDs and DVDs during 2020 but they never did, which makes your transition period argument moot.

SACD instructions will be Arvato+Sonopress regardless of what is ultimately decided for CDs/DVDs.

gemini80s
It obviously took almost 2 years (probably would have been longer if SACD production had continued beyond 2021). Sonopress could have easily updated the SACD machines like they did for CDs and DVDs during 2020 but they never did, which makes your transition period argument moot.

SACD instructions will be Arvato+Sonopress regardless of what is ultimately decided for CDs/DVDs.

OK, then. As you know, I'm talking about CDs, right? Specifically, the Sanctuary release above having brought this to my attention. More specifically, that two different companies are credited for the same manufacturing role within a single two-disc release. I've not addressed SACDs, but I guess you can focus on that, if you prefer.
I've said my piece, do as you like.

somewhatdistantghost
More specifically, that two different companies are credited for the same manufacturing role within a single two-disc release.

There quite a few examples like that from end of 2020, some already mentioned above:

Shakin' Stevens - Singled Out - The Definitive Singles Collection
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): Sonopress 57538327/BMGCAT475TCD1 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 1): IFPI LB47
Mould SID Code (CD 1): IFPI 0787
Matrix / Runout (CD 2): Sonopress 57538314/BMGCAT475TCD2 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 2): IFPI LP 73
Mould SID Code (CD 2): IFPI 0723
Matrix / Runout (CD 3): arvato 57538311/BMGCAT475TCD3 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 3): IFPI LB 46
Mould SID Code (CD 3): IFPI 0778

Geezer Butler - Manipulations Of The Mind (The Complete Collection)
Matrix / Runout (CD1): arvato 57528775/BMGCAT472CD 22
Mastering SID Code (CD1): IFPI LB 46
Mould SID Code (CD1): IFPI 0717
Matrix / Runout (CD2): [Sonopress Logo] 57528784/BMGCAT473CD 21
Mastering SID Code (CD2): IFPI LB47
Mould SID Code (CD2): IFPI 0717
Matrix / Runout (CD3): [Sonopress Logo] 57528761/BMGCAT474CD 22
Mastering SID Code (CD3): IFPI LB 45
Mould SID Code (CD3): IFPI 0717
Matrix / Runout (CD4): [Sonopress Logo] 57956457/BMGCAT513QCDCD4 21
Mastering SID Code (CD4): IFPI LB47
Mould SID Code (CD4): IFPI 072Z

Stevie Nicks - Live In Concert, The 24 Karat Gold Tour
Matrix / Runout (CD1): [Sonopress Logo] 57547560/538643940CD1-3 21
Mould SID Code (CD1): IFPI 0762
Matrix / Runout (CD2): [arvato Logo] 57539966/538643940CD2-1 21
Mould SID Code (CD2): IFPI 0762

US Rails - Last Call At The Red River Saloon
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): [arvato - logo] 57549305/BLUDP0745-CD1 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 1): IFPI LB46
Mould SID Code (CD 1): IFPI 076Z
Matrix / Runout (CD 2): [Sonopress -logo] 57549308/BLUDP0745-CD2 21
Mastering SID Code (CD 2): IFPI LB45
Mould SID Code (CD 2): IFPI 076Z

Thunder (3) - All The Right Noises
Matrix / Runout (Disc 1): [Arvato logo] 57583475/BMGCAT465DCD 21
Mastering SID Code (Disc 1): IFPI LB46
Mould SID Code (Disc 1): IFPI 0736
Matrix / Runout (Disc 2): [Sonopress logo] 57583492/BMGCAT465DCD 21
Mastering SID Code (Disc 2): IFPI LP73
Mould SID Code (Disc 2): IFPI 073Y

Does this make any difference to you?

No, so far I am unconvinced. My opinion remains that:

somewhatdistantghost
If we know that Sonopress is the actual company manufacturing a release, then that is who should be credited, regardless of a 'legacy' Arvato logo.

Therefore...

Myriad
It is of course problematic that both logos were used for a period, but in the interest of making it easier on s and making the database a bit easier to interpret, IMO we should just choose to credit Arvato or Sonopress for all releases in this period. Personally I would be happy to just credit Sonopress for any matrix number after the first re-occurance of the Sonopress logo with a disclaimer that the Arvato logo was also still used for a while during the transition period.

...still makes the most sense to me.

...and (in reference to that Sanctuary sub), crediting Arvato, in the midst of this transition period, based on the presence of a space in the Mastering code? I can't get behind that, and I can't imagine that my position will be changed by any argument, or any number of subs that you might link.

somewhatdistantghost
based on the presence of a space in the Mastering code

What the heck are you talking about?

LB 46 and/or LB46 was Arvato logo between 5752xxxx and 5758xxxx, this is a proven fact (possibly even 5751xxxx).

Please read the posts from my research above. I really don't like repeating myself over and over again for the sake of this argument because we're not even on the same page here.

gemini80s
Basically the Arvato logo originally ended at 57438xxx as machines were updated with new Sonopress logo in early 2020.

However, the IFPI LB 46 machine was not yet updated, only not used again until 5752xxxx.

gemini80s
This is why Arvato Digital Services LCCN can still be used with 5521xxxx-5534xxxx numbers but ONLY in conjunction with mastering SID IFPI LB 47.

.is what the heck I'm talking about. It seems clear that Sonopress simply hadn't yet updated that particular machine, though they had updated other machines. So they dragged their feet on that one machine - that means Arvato should be credited, though we know that Sonopress owned and operated that machine? Doesn't seem correct to me.
Now, as I said above - I've said my piece, do as you like.

somewhatdistantghost
that means Arvato should be credited, though we know that Sonopress owned and operated that machine? Doesn't seem correct to me

Are you implying that all discs with Arvato logo after 57440000 should instead be credited to Sonopress? Because that would be completely against what we are doing here, which is always crediting manufacturers as per logo in matrix if present = as on release. Any sensible person would vote against that proposal.

It's just not as clear cut as you would like it to be with this manufacturer...

somewhatdistantghost
Therefore...

Myriad
It is of course problematic that both logos were used for a period, but in the interest of making it easier on s and making the database a bit easier to interpret, IMO we should just choose to credit Arvato or Sonopress for all releases in this period. Personally I would be happy to just credit Sonopress for any matrix number after the first re-occurance of the Sonopress logo with a disclaimer that the Arvato logo was also still used for a while during the transition period.

...still makes the most sense to me.

As we are already blessed with multiple profiles then I think we need to strive for accuracy as far as we can for these company credits.
We will never know the full reasoning for branding changes. When it comes to Arvato\Sonopress then it is mainly that, a branding change. It is not a question of one company closing and another starting, so if we get it slightly wrong then nothing will be lost.

I had a conversation with gemini80s has changes some credits from Arvato to Arvato Digital Services (ADS). Background was this thread / the research above. In short: The name ADS was changes to Avarto in late 2011. One mschine has used ADS logo in 2012. It is possible to identify the machine and a number range. The changed credits are from 2012, the 'ADS-machine' and in the identified number range. But they have no ADS Logo, they have a Warner Logo. IMO this edit was not correct. We credit what we find on the release. Here we do not find ADS. We can identify a machine the sometimes used the ADS logo, but here this machine used a Warner logo. And because of that, and the year 2012 we have to credit Arvarto. We can not credit an 'old label' only because there are a machine that sometimes, but not this time, use an 'old logo'.

BTW: The Arvarto profile say: "The 'Arvato Digital Services' branding did persist until at least late 2012 on certain machinery, so please use that entry on post-2011 releases when that logo is present in the matrix."

And as explaind above: ADS logo is not present in the matrix.

bibabu
We credit what we find on the release. Here we do not find ADS. We can identify a machine the sometimes used the ADS logo,

Label instructions clearly tell us that it is sometimes impossible to credit what is on release because the plant often replaces their own logos for client logos such as Sony Music and Warner. So we must rely on other data to credit the right manufacturer in such cases. In most cases, sequential numbers (also linked to this thread) give us enough data to do that. Above release is obviously more complicated...

If you had researched this manufacturer as much as I have you would see that Arvato logo was not used with IFPI LB47 between 5520xxxx and 5533xxxx. Not once, not ever. Only Warner, Sony Music or Arvato Digital Services logos appear with these numbers. Why would you credit Arvato then?

You must understand that ADS only appeared "sometimes" with above numbers because clients must have requested Sony Music or Warner in matrix, otherwise it would have been ADS all the time with LB47 during that period.

There is nothing random about the use of plant logos, the pattern is clear and consistent, this is why we can accurately assign the proper manufacturer name with specific mastering codes during specific time periods. I don't understand why we shouldn't do that when such data is available to us.

I do understand that you want to keep things simple, but this plant complicated things for us already in 2004 with Sonopress+Sonopress Arvato logo in same DVD matrix for half a year and again during 2020 and all of 2021 with Sonopress+Arvato logo in same SACD matrix. So in these cases, simple LCCN instructions are not possible. There is absolutely no need to ignore details like that as I believe they will not be too difficult to follow for regular s.

gemini80s
If you had researched this manufacturer as much as I have you would see that Arvato logo was not used with IFPI LB47 between 5520xxxx and 5533xxxx. Not once, not ever. Only Warner, Sony Music or Arvato Digital Services logos appear with these numbers. Why would you credit Arvato then?

Because in this case Avarto Digital Services logo was not used. Warner logo was used. The release date 2012 tell us, that the company use Avarto as name, not ADS.

And because

The 'Arvato Digital Services' branding did persist until at least late 2012 on certain machinery, so please use that entry on post-2011 releases when that logo is present in the matrix.

The ADS logo is not there. If it were there, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

gemini80s
I do understand that you want to keep things simple, but this plant complicated things for us already in 2004 ....... There is absolutely no need to ignore details like that as I believe they will not be too difficult to follow for regular s.

I don't want it simple, I want it correct. The instruction on Arvato are unambiguously. That the plant is complicate in 2004 and 2020ff is of no use here. That the plant Avarto (used name from late 2011 on) in 2012 used one special machine for ADS logo, Warner logo, Sony logo does not make it nessasary to credit ADS for this 3 logos only because the name of the plant was ADS until late 2011.

Inviting some people who were active here before:
Silvermo

It's just a small thing, and not meant to devalue gemini80s' work. But on this one point IMO his view is wrong (or mine). Here, I don't see the need nor a benefit to credit a plant because of the continous pressing number.

bibabu
the release date 2012 tell us, that the company use Avarto as name, not ADS.

This is really just your opinion and nothing more than that.

Just look how many 2012 releases appeared with Arvato Digital Services logos starting from
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/265781-Arvato-Digital-Services?page=123&genre=All&limit=50
until this page
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/265781-Arvato-Digital-Services?page=126&genre=All&limit=50
(well over 100 discs)

See, the problem is we HAVE TO credit those 2012 discs with ADS no matter what because they appear on releases.

And why are you ignoring this important legal info from Arvato Digital Services:

"By March 2012 reorganized to become Arvato Entertainment Europe GmbH (established 26 October 2012). "

This means that "Arvato" name officially did not even legally exist until well into 2012, it only appeared in matrix in 2011.

Your argument makes no sense, sorry.

gemini80s
Just look how many 2012 releases appeared with Arvato Digital Services logos starting from
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/265781-Arvato-Digital-Services?page=123&genre=All&limit=50
until this page
https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/label/265781-Arvato-Digital-Services?page=126&genre=All&limit=50
(well over 100 discs)

Numbers are not the issue here. Also, you changed some of the releases to ADS in the last few days. What it looked like before you changed it is no longer comprehensible.

gemini80s
And why are you ignoring this important legal info from Arvato Digital Services:

"By March 2012 reorganized to become Arvato Entertainment Europe GmbH (established 26 October 2012). "

Because I've overlooked it until now.

BTW: The release in question is from Oct 2012.

I think we agree on what to do when the Avarto logo or the ADS logo is in the matrix.
We differ in what to do, when Warner logo or Sony logo is in the matrix.

IMO it is not correct, in a release with a matrix that uses neither the Avarto logo nor the ADS logo, to credit both. Either Avarto or ADS. To use the same plant with two different names in one release, on the grounds that different machines were used, makes absolutely no sense to me.

This problem will persist, as long as profiles of Arvato Entertainment Europe are contradictory or ambiguous. This should be fixed first. Then sub can be fixed.

bibabu
To use the same plant with two different names in one release, on the grounds that different machines were used, makes absolutely no sense to me.

Makes no sense but you have to face reality:

https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/990421#10148324

Doesn't take much research to see this phenomenon consistently happened with this plant. What's your advice for this issue then? Not credit what is actually present on release?

I'm the only one doing any actual research here, which is really sad. LCCN instructions were a mess before, now that we have some clear instructions it's only complaints. If you're going to continue to argue this, please first do some research into the numbers and logos. Maybe that will change your opinion on the matter.

gemini80s
Doesn't take much research to see this phenomenon consistently happened with this plant. What's your advice for this issue then? Not credit what is actually present on release?

You understood me wrong. The name of the plant (at the time in question) was Arvato or Avarto Digital Service. If that shows up in the matrix, then we should use that too (credit what is on release). Complicated facts can explained in release notes or at lable profile.

Your research shows, that at the time as plant name was Avarto Digital Service, the Arvato logo was in use (or did I missed something?). Maybe that can be seen as an abbreviation of Avarto Digital Service. Somewhat later, ADS was renamed to Arvato was never the name of the plant. It's hard for me to find a proper way out here, so for the moment, I ignore that.

gemini80s
I'm the only one doing any actual research here, which is really sad. LCCN instructions were a mess before, now that we have some clear instructions it's only complaints.

The instructions may not be as clear to everyone as they are to you. You still haven't commented on this (found at Arvato): "The 'Arvato Digital Services' branding did persist until at least late 2012 on certain machinery, so please use that entry on post-2011 releases when that logo is present in the matrix.". For me that means: Only use ADS if it also appears as a logo. Otherwise use Avarto.

BTW: I don't want to belittle your work, on the contrary. It is extremely tedious to find out something in the confusion, especially since the release date given is not always correct. It doesn't make it any easier that nobody seems interested in the matter except you. But asg the numbers of one machine to ADS and simultaneously asg numbers of other machines to Avarto, where neither is used as a logo, that just looks wrong to me.

I hope that maybe some s will the discussion. Maybe we should invite more people.

bibabu
It's hard for me to find a proper way out here

This is probably the reason others refuse to comment any further on the matter. It's complicated. There's no wrong or right, just one opinion over the other. I firmly stand behind my opinion purely based on scientific research, and see absolutely no reason why any details I added should be changed at the moment.

Some Arvato profile instructions are old. The part you quote has not been properly updated since my text and numbers were added below, so all we need to do is improve that part to clear up any ambiguity.

bibabu
But asg the numbers of one machine to ADS and simultaneously asg numbers of other machines to Avarto, where neither is used as a logo, that just looks wrong to me.

Me too. This seems similar to the issue I raised recently.

gemini80s
LCCN instructions were a mess before, now that we have some clear instructions it's only complaints

Many s don't see these forum discussions, only becoming aware of these issues when receiving notifications of edits.
As I said before, and as bibabu has said: your hard work is appreciated. I don't think that anyone wants to minimize the effort that you've put in. But, that doesn't mean automatic agreement with every point of your analysis.

Someone pinged me, so I'll make a comment....

bibabu
Here, I don't see the need nor a benefit to credit a plant because of the continuous pressing number.

Problem is, I do see it is worth crediting a plant. Personally I'd want to go further and merge most of these, but this is not the Discogs way.

I think gemini80s is doing a mad crazy job on making sense of some of this. To me it makes more sense naming who mastered\pressed the CD than who's logo was on the matrix. I don't care if Sony puts a logo on a CD - I want to know who manufactured it. Sony's name is already on the copyright \ release details. Tell me who made my CD. That is more important in that field. I don't care who paid for the pressing.

(And to be honest, I am lost in most of the above discussion.... I just see gemini80s bringing consistancy)

It's almost comical that we're having this discussion for such a minor detail that only a few s actually care about.

It's the same plant, only a different name. Arvato Digital Services or Arvato. Obviously both names were used in 2012, so both will end up on label pages regardless. Only one will have slightly more entries than the other. Big deal. Same for Arvato and Sonopress in 2020. This is like style edits, nobody's right, nobody's wrong. Please let's just move on from this issue. I really don't need to spend every evening rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Not worth my time anymore, sorry.

Let me just make this important point one last time: the plant obviously wanted to be known as "Arvato Digital Services" again in LATE 2012, otherwise they would not have reinstated that matrix logo. At that time, 4 different mastering codes were in use for CDs and DVDs. IFPI LB47 was just one of them. So we're talking roughly 25% of that output. Let's say the plant logo appears on about half of releases, so the point of contention is about 10% of CD and DVD releases during late 2012. Kind of puts things in perspective, I think.

I’m new to this thread and you can imagine what it’s like reading it all for the first time. I have a 2-CD release for Ted Nugent – Double Live Gonzo! (Epic – E2K 35069) with:

Matrix / Runout (CD 1): 56929485/1E2K35069RD1 21 (no logo present)
Mastering SID (CD 1): IFPI LY93
Mould SID (CD 1): IFPI 07B4

Matrix / Runout (CD 2): 56929487/1E2K35069RD2 21 (no logo present)
Mastering SID (CD 2): IFPI LY93
Mould SID (CD 2): IFPI 07B4

This release isn’t currently in the Discogs db and I’m going to make a new entry. I’d like to nail down both the year and the pressing plant and then what I have.

It appears from the earlier sequential listing post that this might be a 2018 Arvato pressing. Interestingly we have a “1” before the LCCN in the matrix and “RD2” after. Also notice that the Mastering SID is LY93 which I can’t find in the discussion. The back cover shows “Disc(s) made in . Packaged in USA”

I looked over the pages about Sonopress, Arvato and Arvato Digital Services, but I’m still confused.
What should I enter for Pressed By?

Thanks

Hi,
LY93 is a mastering SID originally associated to the US-based Arvato / Sonopress plant, see Arvato, USA
So I would guess this is a case of machines and their IFPI codes having been transferred to following the closure of the US operations..?

569##### = Arvato + glass master produced in 2018 according to the timeline
I think we usually don't infer a release date from these #s / timelines, as a glass master done in 2018 doesn't necessarily mean the copies pressed from this hit the shelves in 2018 or 6 or 12 months afterwards - this can be mentioned in notes

To add to the question marks, there are some CDs with same codes / patterns eg https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/search/?q=ifpily93+mexico+rd1&type=release&type=release

In any case, I'd wait for input from s with more expertise on the subject - kinda looks like we have a German can of Mexican worms here (or vice versa)... and/or these made in XXXX mentions are not entirely reliable or can mean different things, pressing CD, printing the artwork, even just assembling the product, whatever's more convenient for the US company

Thanks for the explanation. Transferring machinery to might be it. I see that the combination of the LY93 and 07B4 SIDs causes a mess. Seems you nearly have to be a homicide investigator to sort these things out. I had no idea how interesting this stuff would become. As you say, perhaps others will know more.

_jules
LY93 is a mastering SID originally associated to the US-based Arvato / Sonopress plant, see Arvato, USA
So I would guess this is a case of machines and their IFPI codes having been transferred to following the closure of the US operations..?

I think you're partially correct. LY93 belonged to the USA Sonopress/Arvato plant until its closure in 2016 (see Arvato, Mexico). This coincided with the closure of Sony DADC USA plants in early 2018. The Sony USA CD releases from 2018 often appeared with SID combinations LY93 + 07** or LY93 and 10**. It seems some of those releases were pressed in , others in Mexico which also apparently produced those glass masters.

mjohnsonn
Matrix / Runout (CD 1): 56929485/1E2K35069RD1 21 (no logo present)
Mastering SID (CD 1): IFPI LY93
Mould SID (CD 1): IFPI 07B4

Matrix / Runout (CD 2): 56929487/1E2K35069RD2 21 (no logo present)
Mastering SID (CD 2): IFPI LY93
Mould SID (CD 2): IFPI 07B4

As both discs include Arvato mould SID codes in conjunction with their matrix pattern, I think that company can be credited in LCCN as such:

Pressed By - Arvato - 56929485
Pressed By - Arvato - 56929487

That makes sense. I'll use that. This community comes to the rescue fast! Thanks plenty.

Can I get some check \ help from the Sony Matrix Guru?

I have a pair of CDs with SONY MUSIC 55312231/88725473802 21 and SONY MUSIC 55343125/88725473752-2 21 in the matrixes. Now this looks like this release: Everything Everything - Arc but the matrix there has no SONY MUSIC... also has no SIDs listed. So I am guessing the Sony Music is missing. I just want to check this makes sense with the Arvato pressing reference.

I assume I just add my variant to that copy? (My SIDs IFPI LP 73 \ IFPI 0780+IFPI 0785)

For reference, the non-deluxe edition is here Everything Everything - Arc and also has the same SONY MUSIC logo in the matrix. This is why I am fairly sure it is just not typed.

IvanDobsky
I assume I just add my variant to that copy? (My SIDs IFPI LP 73 \ IFPI 0780+IFPI 0785)

Yes definitely, original variant must also have Sony Music as both matrices are identical (same matrix will always have the same logo and mastering code), in your case it means original masters by Arvato.

Thanks for the confirmation. Variant 2 now in place leaving space for the original person to return if they want to.

gemini80s
I have a question on Andreas Franz Gelesen Von Stephan Benson - Unsichtbare Spuren:
CD 1 to 5 have the Sonopress Arvato logo
CD 6 has the Arvato Digital Services
All with numbers 518667XX
Is my entry correct then with all credits to Sonopress Arvato?
Please note the release date 2011 (© 2006/2011), the master is probably from 2006 and only the logo for CD 6 was replaced for the 2011 issue?

Additional question:
Should the LCCN order for Sonopress Arvato be the disc order (disc 1 to 6) or the sequential Sonopress# order (like entered now)?

adrian.schmitt.96
Is my entry correct then with all credits to Sonopress Arvato?
Please note the release date 2011 (© 2006/2011), the master is probably from 2006 and only the logo for CD 6 was replaced for the 2011 issue?

No, company in LCCN should reflect the matrix logo (only if Sonopress/Arvato is not present should you to defer to 5xxxxxxx number sequence for guidance). CD6 master was also done by Arvato Digital Services, different matrix logo always means a new glass master.

adrian.schmitt.96
Should the LCCN order for Sonopress Arvato be the disc order

This is my preference as data reflects BaOI order. Don't worry if numbers are out of order in LCCN, they will be automatically sorted on manufacturer label pages (as you have entered them).

gemini80s
What is the correct way to credit Sonopress on CD-releases before 2000? I have seen differnt ways in submissions, Manufactured by, Pressed by, Made by or Glass mastered at. What is correct?

steand0806
What is the correct way to credit Sonopress on CD-releases before 2000? I have seen differnt ways in submissions, Manufactured by, Pressed by, Made by or Glass mastered at.

I think all above are OK in most cases. Obviously "Glass mastered at" should be used as the profile suggests because some Sonopress masters were pressed by other plants (this is easy to know after 1994 with SID codes, but not at all before that)...

Ok, thanks!

I just want to say I'm loving this list - thank you gemini80s for all your work here, I'm having a lot of fun with my updates :)

Queens Of The Stone Age - ...Like Clockwork has some variants with the word NEW in the matrix but if I'm reading it correctly the arvato catalogueing of 55473603 and 55508359 suggests the same year?

Danthewhippet
Queens Of The Stone Age - ...Like Clockwork has some variants with the word NEW in the matrix but if I'm reading it correctly the arvato catalogueing of 55473603 and 55508359 suggests the same year?

Probably both 2013 editions but variants 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 should be separate submissions because LCCN number is different (even if they were mastered only a month apart). So release date would also not be May 31 for those NEW masters...

gemini80s
DanthewhippetQueens Of The Stone Age - ...Like Clockwork has some variants with the word NEW in the matrix but if I'm reading it correctly the arvato catalogueing of 55473603 and 55508359 suggests the same year?
Probably both 2013 editions but variants 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 should be separate submissions because LCCN number is different (even if they were mastered only a month apart). So release date would also not be May 31 for those NEW masters...

Thanks very much, appreciate the help.

gemini80s
I think you're partially correct. LY93 belonged to the USA Sonopress/Arvato plant until its closure in 2016 (see Arvato, USA profile). Then this SID apparently transferred to the Mexican Sonopress plant (Arvato, Mexico). This coincided with the closure of Sony DADC USA plants in early 2018. The Sony USA CD releases from 2018 often appeared with SID combinations LY93 + 07** or LY93 and 10**. It seems some of those releases were pressed in , others in Mexico which also apparently produced those glass masters.

Stevie Ray Vaughan And Double Trouble* - Soul To Soul) with this BaOI:

Matrix / Runout: 56982155/1EK65872RD1 21
Mastering SID Code: IFPI LV93
Mould SID Code: IFPI 1018

My copy of this CD has the same matrix / runout, but:
Mastering SID Code: IFPI LY93
Mould SID Code: IFPI 0788

First, I suspect the OS of Soul To Soul made a mistake in mastering SID code as the LY** can look like an LV**
If I'm reading/understanding everything right, my copy would be unique because it's pressed by Arvato? Sorry . . . my head is kind of spinning by all of this.

Mylene-Clouseau
First, I suspect the OS of Soul To Soul made a mistake in mastering SID code as the LY** can look like an LV**
If I'm reading/understanding everything right, my copy would be unique because it's pressed by Arvato . . . I also suspect it wasn't glass mastered at Arvato, Mexico because on the jewel case inlay it specifies: "Disc made in . Packaged in USA."

First part you're right there is no LV93, all these codes are typos...

"Disc made in " only refers to pressing, not necessarily glass mastering. So we should assume your copy was mastered in Mexico but pressed in . I agree it should be a new submission due to the different pressing plant (country).

gemini80s
"Disc made in " only refers to pressing, not necessarily glass mastering. So we should assume your copy was mastered in Mexico but pressed in . I agree it should be a new submission due to the different pressing plant (country).

First - thank you for answering my question - it is greatly appreciated!

So - Glass Mastered at Arvato it is!

Last night I submitted two other releases that have very similar BaOI's (and the same "Disc made in . Packaged in USA" printed on the inlays):

The Vaughan Brothers - Family Style with BaOI:

Matrix / Runout: 56961866/1ZK46225RD1 21
Mastering SID Code: IFPI LY93
Mould SID Code: IFPI 0738

. . . and Stevie Ray Vaughan And Double Trouble* - In Step with BaOI:

Matrix / Runout: 56974527/1EK65874RD1 22
Mastering SID Code: IFPI LY93
Mould SID Code: IFPI 07B4

Am I correct that all of these should credit Arvato for pressed by credits?

Mylene-Clouseau
all of these should credit Arvato, Mexico for glass mastered at credits and Arvato for pressed by credits

I think at this moment we should only use the pressed by LCCN entry for post-2018 discs as the Arvato, Mexico profile does not mention IFPI LY93 being associated with that plant (but if mould SID 10** transferred from Arvato USA, then that mastering SID almost certainly did as well)...

So I suggest using only Arvato in LCCN, since the 5xxxxxxx numbers belong to the German plant, it should be most accurate like this for your releases:

The Vaughan Brothers - Family Style
Pressed By – Arvato – 56961866

Stevie Ray Vaughan And Double Trouble* - In Step
Pressed By – Arvato – 56974527

Excellent! Thanks again gemini80s! I'll edit my submissions accordingly.

gemini80s
No, company in LCCN should reflect the matrix logo (only if Sonopress/Arvato is not present should you to defer to 5xxxxxxx number sequence for guidance). CD6 master was also done by Arvato Digital Services, different matrix logo always means a new glass master.

I have just done this release Cocteau Twins - Lullabies To Violaine - Volume 1.

It uses the same sequential number in the matrix as this somewhat earlier release of the same title Cocteau Twins - Lullabies To Violaine - Volume 1.

I don't coming across this situation before and am not sure if/how it should impact on LCCN entries - particularly given the different 'manufacturer' in the matrix.

spekem
Cocteau Twins - Lullabies To Violaine - Volume 1.

It uses the same sequential number in the matrix as this somewhat earlier release of the same title Cocteau Twins - Lullabies To Violaine - Volume 1

Not at all unusual for this plant to reissue glass master numbers from 15+ years ago. I think you may also find some examples with old Sonopress and new Sonopress logo (that would be the most extreme case, this is close)...

Release Sonopress logo, matrix pattern, mastering SID LB 45 (with the space) and a mould SID 0717, all visible in the image. The release date isn't 100% known but everything points to 2009.

The problem is that the matrix code 53593873 falls within the https://discogs.sitiosdesbloqueados.info/forum/thread/990421#10128716
There doesn’t seem to be a good path through the ADS profile nor does there seem to be a good path through the Sonopress profile for me to be certain of crediting a plant.

I’m guessing those code numbers change more often than logs and mastering SIDs so is it reasonable that the code 53593873 is the more telling item? Is this likely made by ADS with a legacy Sonopress logo and mastering SID? Should I credit ADS and note Sonopress ? How far off base am I?

Thanks.

mjohnsonn
I’m guessing those code numbers change more often than logs and mastering SIDs so is it reasonable that the code 53593873 is the more telling item? Is this likely made by ADS with a legacy Sonopress logo and mastering SID? Should I credit ADS and note Sonopress ? How far off base am I?

That's the current Sonopress logo introduced in 2020, see an example for a 2024 release: Symphonies

As we don't have a separate 'Sonopress 2020' page it can be added as 'Glass mastered at - Sonopress - 53593873' to LCCN.

handmedownurluv
That's the current Sonopress logo introduced in 2020

Good thing I aksed! I had it all backwards. Looks like the "new" Sonopress used the "old" 2009 code 53593873. I will certainly credit like you say.
Thanks plenty!

First time I'm "entering" a thread, so I might be all wrong, but I thought number sequences could help to determine, at least apprximately the date of manufactering and the date of releases.

This (my) interpretation might be wrong when you examine for example
Souad Massi - Raoui : according to scanned images and considering the timeline for Arvato, this release shouldn't be an Arvato glass master, as 52952824 seems to correspond to year 2008!

Thanks in advance to explain me briefly where I'm wrong.

Regards