So just to repeat my confusion :)
Sebfact's Runout Thread shows:
- AL on London releases = Audio Manufacturing
- AL + Date = Allentown Pressing
- ARC = Allentown Pressing
There is no documentation saying that AL + Date = Audio Manufacturing, but we have London releases with AL on labels and AL + Date in runouts.
So is AL + Date a valid indicator for both Audio Manufacturing AND Allentown? If so, how do we separate the two?
Additionally, I have found Allentown pressings for Elektra which have both ARC and AL + Date in runouts. I've yet to find any Audio Manufacturing releases, apart from those tagged on London labels, with AL + Date.
Audio Manufacturing pressings' label fonts, generally, with some exceptions, use different sizes of Varityper Univers Bold (6, 8, 10 and 12 point). The 2.75" pressing ring has a deeper crater downwards towards the spindle hole than on Allentown pressings. This was carried over for a bit from when the plant was acquired by, and then its name changed into, Peter Pan Industries around 1975. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some differences of the outer edge of the record itself. I invite you to see for yourself, what many of these different companies (aside from Audio Mfg.) used: https://archive.org/details/varityper_typefaces_1967/page/n5/mode/2up
But I have to wonder if, had Allentown pressed LP's for London in 1970 and beyond, whether the suffix would have been just plain 'A' on the label. (And Allentown did press for Elektra into the first months of the 'butterfly' label in 1970, that I can confirm. Their type was generally Linotype Metromedium No. 2 with Metroblack No. 2.)
trailoff
Are these examples also associated with companies that did put dates in the runout such as Bell Sound?
It appears that there are some with Bell Sound imprint, but this is the first I've heard of Bell Sound entering a mastering date. Of the several hundred Atlantic Lps in my collection with Bell Sound stamps, I can find zero with a date etch...
Let me repost here what I first posted over there:
- The list says that AL + Date = Allentown.
- The list says that London releases with plant code AL on labels = Audio Manufacturing.
- We have London releases with AL + Date and "AL" plant code on labels.
- Cognitive dissonance. Does AL + Date ONLY = Allentown, or is it sometimes Audio Manufacturing? If this is the case, how do we discern between the two?
- Do we have hard evidence that London "AL" code = Audio Lakewood?
Showbiz_Kid
It appears that there are some with Bell Sound imprint, but this is the first I've heard of Bell Sound entering a mastering date. Of the several hundred Atlantic Lps in my collection with Bell Sound stamps, I can find zero with a date etch...
Self isolation must be making me crazy, those dates are related to something else.
Showbiz_Kid
- Cognitive dissonance. Does AL + Date ONLY = Allentown, or is it sometimes Audio Manufacturing? If this is the case, how do we discern between the two?
There are indeed Audio Mfg. releases that have a date in the runouts. However, it is not clear whether the date belongs to Audio Mfg. or for something else in the runouts such as mastering info.
Showbiz_Kid
- Do we have hard evidence that London "AL" code = Audio Lakewood?
I believe this originated with W.B., so it's probably accurate.
Also, Allentown pressings' typesetting, as I've said, well into the mid-1970's, was mostly Linotype Metromedium No. 2 with Metroblack No. 2. By the latter part of the decade, those fonts were replaced by Linotype Trade Gothic with Bold. This is as much a consideration of pinpointing a pressing as the rings in the label area and by what's in the deadwax. Everest was a key Allentown client in the 1970's, for example. I'd documented what fonts Audio/Peter Pan used.
trailoff
The Audio Mfg. name remained in use up to at least 1976.
July 1977 Cash Box
That conflicts with the Billboard Buyer’s Guides from 74 and 75. 1974 a 1974 b 1975
I don’t really know how we should resolve that conflict. Maybe just following ‘as on release’ and attributing the PP to Peter Pan.
trailoff
Found this bit that gives a mid 1973 start date to PPI.
May 5, 1973 Billboard article “Ambassador Co. Now Peter Pan” p3
This is referring to Peter Pan Records, which is different and relates to its children’s records business. (There are a bunch of those press releases in Billboard from the early to mid-70s - I clicked through most of them.
sebfact
BTW: there also exist ALt (or ALT) + date, as can be seen on Various - Brother, Can You Spare A Dime? (American Song During The Great Depression).
My guess is that’s an Allentown pressing.
sebfact
Is it possible to summarize what we know about each plant?
Records on London and its sublabels with AL on the labels appear to have been pressed by Audio Mfg. (Lakewood).
Melissa Manchester - Melissa, which they have also voted correct even though it contains multiple errors. Naturally, this doesn’t make sense because they originally added this image to the Allentown profile 1 year ago.
IMO if we disable their images and delete all of the guesswork from the profiles we should be ok.
sebfact
Is it possible to summarize what we know about each plant?
I forgot to add Audio Mfg. (Lakewood) became Peter Pan during the mid-1970s (the profile says 1975, but I think it might have been at least 1 or 2 years earlier. This is why that Melissa Manchester LP cannot be right.
berothbr
Records on London and its sublabels with AL on the labels
OK.
Could it also be that AL in the runouts only indicates Allentown on Elektra pressings, and that all other AL in the runouts refer to Lakewood?
I have found a few "AL+m d yy" (e.g. on Everest releases) which rather could be ALt m d yy ...
sebfact
Could it also be that AL in the runouts only indicates Allentown on Elektra pressings, and that all other AL in the runouts refer to Lakewood?
Identifying Audio Mfg. from AL in the runouts (not labels) is too unreliable.
Some of my observations:
AL in runouts + NOT on labels BEFORE ~1974 without date = unreliable
AL in runouts + NOT on labels + with date(in runouts) = probably Allentown
AL on labels BEFORE ~1974 = probably Audio Mfg. (Lakewood)
AL in runouts AFTER ~1974/5 = could be Allentown
AL in runouts + date in runouts + AL on labels BEFORE ~1974= probably Audio Mfg. (Lakewood)
AL on labels + PP in runouts AFTER ~1974 = Peter Pan
berothbr
Btw these are the worst sounding records ever - like everything plays G-
Not always.
The Allentown etching is typically a light etching.
sebfact
I have found a few "AL+m d yy" (e.g. on Everest releases) which rather could be ALt m d yy ...
The Allentown etching is usually a little sloppy and inconsistent. I’ve seen them have AL on one side and Alt on the other.
sebfact
carry the same pic with AL in the runouts.
That AL isn’t similar to the other Allentown etchings I’ve seen. It’s usually much lighter and located a half turn from the master number. From what I’ve seen with TML stampings is they’re usually about 1/4 or 1/3 turn from the master number.
berothbr
Everything on Everest from 60s-70s with that info is Allentown
What I wanted to point out is that the "+" may in fact be a small t so that we don't have AL+ but ALt.
berothbr
AL on labels BEFORE ~1974 = probably Audio Mfg. (Lakewood)
At least for London this has been confirmed.
EDIT: For the time being, I will remove AL = Allentown from the runouts section but will only keep ALt and ARC for Allentown, and AL for Audio Lakewood in the Label identifiers section.
Sorry folks, confusing times.. I agree +1 Thanks for the heavy lifting. regards
berothbr
IMO if we disable their images and delete all of the guesswork from the profiles we should be ok.
sebfact
EDIT: For the time being, I will remove AL = Allentown from the runouts section but will only keep ALt and ARC, and AL for Audio Lakewood in the Label identifiers section.
sebfact
EDIT: For the time being, I will remove AL = Allentown from the runouts section but will only keep ALt and ARC, and AL for Audio Lakewood in the Label identifiers section.
Alt and ARC on labels are not for Audio Mfg. (Lakewood), AFAICT, only AL on labels is
In the 1960's, Allentown pressed LP's for Kapp as well as Elektra, within the next decade clients included Everest and their sublabels (such as New World); not to mention Buddah and sublabels (no surprise, given that the plant by then was acquired by Buddah's parent Viewlex). The Brother, Can You Spare A Dime? LP was from after the printer that did label copy for Allentown had switched from Metromedium with Metroblack No. 2, to Trade Gothic with Bold (both hot-metal Linotype fonts).
The Melissa album seems like a "cusp," at the point Audio Mfg.'s ID was transitioning to Peter Pan Industries. But whatever name, that plant had pressed LP's for Arista and predecessor label Bell, definitely. Their fonts were various sizes of Varityper's Univers Bold. I know, type isn't the only way to ID pressings. Runouts (although here we have a caveat emptor situation), pressing rings in the label area, vinyl thickness and also the outer edge contours of a record also are definers in ID'ing.
W.B.
The Melissa album seems like a "cusp," at the point Audio Mfg.'s ID was transitioning to Peter Pan Industries. But whatever name, that plant had pressed LP's for Arista and predecessor label Bell, definitely.
What’s clear is that the plant’s transition from the Audio Mfg. Lakewood name to Peter Pan is murky due to contradictory info on releases and in external sources like Billboard. I think we should just follow as on release for those. If there is AL on the labels, but PP in the runouts, Peter Pan is what we should use. If it’s AL on the labels without PP in the runouts, then we should use Audio Mfg. (Lakewood).
sebfact what we know for sure is that AL by itself in the runouts is not a reliable way to identify the pressing plant independently.
What I think should be done is we should handle it the same way we have handled delta #s, which is that we added warnings that say ‘do not confuse with Monarch/SLM/etc.’
